UrbanFaith editor Allen Reynolds talked with Rev. William H. Lamar IV about his book Ancestors: Those Who Bless Us, Curse Us, Hold Us. He shares how believers can follow Jesus’ example by honoring their ancestors and drawing from their strength to combat injustice today. Excerpts are below, the full interview is above.
Allen
Pastor Lamar, you have this book coming out on ancestors, something that I think is so relevant right now. We know that there is an attack on Black history happening in this country, and we’re trying to do more and more to address the importance of recognizing our history, recognizing those who have come before us. Can you talk a little bit about why you decided to write a book about ancestors for a time like this?
Pastor Lamar
Allen, there’s so many ways I could get into it. Let me begin with what was sitting deep in my soul and spirit as I was wrestling with these ideas and as these ideas were really forcing their way up through me. In my grandmother’s house at 223 Madison Street, in a smallish town in Georgia, there was a portrait that hung by the front door of her Aunt Viney, a black and white portrait in an oval frame. Many Black folks have seen kind of sepia tone portraits like that. As a child, I was always intrigued. Why is she there? Because it’s like the portrait said, “Good morning to me every morning and good night every evening.” My grandmother began to tell me the story of Aunt Viney and how when her parents died, her parents died when she was so young [that] she had no memory of them, that Aunt Viney took her in, raised her and her sisters and literally saved her life. That portrait hung in the place of honor in my grandmother’s home and now it hangs in a place of honor in my home. What I realize now is hanging that portrait was not just about remembering Aunt Viney, but my grandmother was seeking for a certain energy and spirit to be in her home. That same spirit of hospitality, that same spirit of sacrifice. When she told me that story, she was trying to help me to become not only what Aunt Viney was, but who she was, the kind of person that she had become. Black people and peoples around the world have always centered ancestral presences, ancestral images, ancestral belongings as a way to root us, as a way to anchor us and as a way to be connected with energy beyond death. What I’m trying to say in this book is that we especially now cannot be hesitant or afraid to embrace the power of ancestors, especially black people because we have been taught that venerating and honoring our ancestors is pagan, that it is un-Christian, that there is something wrong with it. When there absolutely are no people who do not venerate or honor their ancestors and do it in explicit ways. I live in Washington, DC. Part of the book talks about there is no city as steeped in ancestral veneration as Washington, DC. The name of the city, the monuments of the city, the streets and the statuary of the city. Why would I honor energies of conquest and hegemony and white supremacy and not honor and venerate the energies that have made us the beautiful, free, wonderful, struggling, committed people that we have always been? I’m just very clear, especially for those of faith, because you cannot extract ancestral veneration from reading of the [scriptures]. There is no way to know God except ancestrally. God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob, God of our mothers, God of our fathers, and also the very fact that Jesus himself climbed a mountain and had an ancestral visitation [with Moses and Elijah]. If he needed to be visited by and needed to visit his ancestors, surely we do.
Allen
One of the things that strikes me about this moment that I want you to want to ask you about is that we know that there’s an assault right now on black history and that there’s an effort as you might put it to disconnect us from our ancestors. Right? And in our schools, in our communities, can you talk about why it’s important for us to maintain and reinforce that connection? I would even call the ancestor veneration you talk about as [embracing] living history. How do we embrace our living history as black people in a moment like this?
Pastor Lamar
So, I’m blessed to be the pastor of Ernest Green. And Ernie Green was one of the Little Rock Nine who integrated central high schools. I remember one day I was talking with Brother Ernie and I asked him, I said, “Brother Green, how did you all marshal the energy to do what you did in Little Rock, to integrate that school in the midst of all that violence?” And he told me this. He said he had a teacher who taught them about revolts amongst the enslaved and maroon communities. They said that because he had learned those stories, and I would press the language, I would say, because the energy of those ancestors via the telling of the stories, that energy became part of his energy. When it was his time to stand, he said, if they could revolt and if the maroons could leave plantation economies, go deep into the woods and build a place of freedom and protect themselves, then I could stand in my day. What they know is if these stories disappear, our fight will disappear. GPS is able to “tell you” where you are because it is sending signals to satellites. And those satellites are sending signals back. Our ancestors send us energy to tell us where we are and who we are. And if we are disconnected from those stories, then we will not fight. We will not have the joy. We will not have the cultural clarity. We will not have the creativity. So D’Angelo died, the great artist. And if you listen to D’Angelo’s music, you know that D’Angelo has spent time with Marvin Gaye. You know that D’Angelo has spent time with Teddy Pendegrass. You know that D’Angelo has spent time with Billie Holiday. So, they know that if they erase our history, then we will live as those who are starting from zero. When really, we are not starting from zero. We have gotten a baton passed to us from those who ran before. And they understand the power of history. Now for those people, now notice at the same time they’re trying to erase our history, they got a 1776 commission. They are retelling their own story and they are scrubbing it of its evil, of its conquest, of its violence. They are telling them to command all of their political impulse to tell [that] story. If you go back and read what they said it is because they don’t want white children to feel guilt. They feel bad about who they are. They are preparing the next generations to continue their story of domination. If we are going to prepare our next generations for stories of community, for stories of love, for stories of shared human flourishing, then we cannot let them take our stories from us. And even if they keep doing what they are doing, they sure can’t tell you what stories to tell your daughters. They cannot tell me what to preach. And they cannot dictate what we write, what we sing. And so, we keep going forward. We keep going forward. They will not erase us. To take our stories is to take us. And we cannot let it happen.
Allen
For young people who may be in this moment trying to figure out, how can I move forward and be fruitful and still hold on to the sankofa, look backward and move forward? What wisdom would you share? What advice would you give them about how to move forward and flourishing in a world that seems to want to erase them and their history?
Pastor Lamar
What an extraordinary question. Let me tell you, the times have changed and the vehicles are different. I think the methodology is the same. My parents took me to libraries as a child. I was surrounded by books. I remember the joy I had as a child watching PBS when it aired the Shaka Zulu miniseries and when it aired Eyes on the Prize. And when I saw those images, I pulled every biography I could. I watched and read everything I could. And those ancestors became a part of me. Just like kids hear people say you are what you eat. When you eat that ancestral energy by reading and watching and asking questions, now those things are a part of me. Those stories are a part of me. I will never forget when I first read Up from Slavery. And then a few months ago, I was actually in Tuskegee in Mr. [Booker T.] Washington’s house, in his bathroom, in his office. And on the wall in Mr. Washington’s office was a commendation given to him by the trustees of Metropolitan African Methodist Episcopal Church that he hanged in his own office. That is the connection. When you read of the ancestors, when you open yourself to their stories, they will find you over and over again and they will cajole you toward a larger humanity and toward the excellence and service and joy necessary for us to flourish in this moment when they are committed to our destruction. What I am saying is I don’t want any black person saying, “This ain’t of God.” This is exactly of God. When the scripture says, “When you cross the river, put the stones there. So when the children come back and ask what mean these stones,” that is connecting them to their ancestry. That is connecting them to the technology of sacred memory. And what it will do is open for us new avenues to hear the voice of the divine mitigated through the voices of our mothers and fathers. That is what we all are called to do, especially for the young. Surround them in their rooms with pictures of the ancestors, with books of the ancestors. Tell them stories of the ancestors, and the ancestors will help to lift them to their true vocation. And they will be the warriors we need to fight with joy in days to come.
For Camille Joy, motherhood did not unfold the way she imagined it would. Instead, it invited her into a deeper reliance on faith, a slower understanding of joy, and a kind of love shaped by unexpected challenges. In her book Moments of Joy, Joy writes to parents who are learning how to hold gratitude and grief in the same hands. Through honest storytelling and gospel-centered hope, she reminds readers that God is present not only in answered prayers, but also in the daily, unseen moments where endurance is formed and joy quietly takes root. The full audio interview is below with written excerpts edited for clarity and length below.
MAINA
Where did the book come from? When did you know it was time to write it?
CAMILLE JOY
I knew it was time to write it in 2021. It took a long time to get to that place. Writing a book is very scary. Being published is even scarier. And once you get to the edits, that’s even more scary.
I knew it was time in 2021 when I began to encourage people online. I realized there were other parents like me who needed this kind of encouragement — not just kind words, but understanding that even in this diagnosis, God is still with us. That your child is still beautifully and wonderfully made.
MAINA
I have to admit, when I was reading it, I felt like it could be a book for all parents. Even though it’s inspired by parenting a child with disabilities, I kept thinking, every parent needs this.
How did you know to write it specifically for parents who have a child like Mason — especially since you have other children?
CAMILLE JOY
I do — I have four other children. Mason is my fifth.
Everyone had different needs. Even my youngest son before Mason, who is still eight years older than Mason, his needs are ever evolving as a sibling of a child with a disability. Those children often become the center of the family because of the complexity of their health and neurological needs.
Mason became the center, but I had to remember that everyone still needed me. My oldest is about to be 25, and they still need their mother forever. I need mine.
With Mason, I had to crumble up everything I thought I knew about parenting. I knew motherhood. I knew structure. But then here came a child with special needs who had sensory restrictions even around food. I found myself cooking one meal for my family and then chicken nuggets for him. That was a complete shift for me.
And within the body of Christ, these parents are often rejected. Their children are demonized. People mean well, but they say things like, “You’re not praying hard enough.” That hurt deeply. I remember Mason was in my womb. The doctor said he’s going to be born with congenital heart disease. He told us he would need several surgeries. The doctor asked, “do you want to keep this baby or not?” And of course, my husband and I were like, “What? Of course we’re going to have our child. We’re going to accept everything.” But immediately when he was born, I began to face those people who would say you need to say this scripture. You need to pray. You’re not praying hard enough. It just hit me in my heart. I think people mean well, but those things that are [hurtful] with the parent. I began to feel rejected. I knew I could pray. I knew I was an intercessor. I knew that. But what do I do when here on earth, my baby is still not healed? Now what? You know? And God is still good. He’s still faithful.
God taught me how to pray differently. He taught me compassion for parents who are isolated and often misunderstood.
MAINA
Tell me about Mason.
CAMILLE JOY
Mason is eight years old. He loves music — gospel music especially. He wants one praise song “Anthem of Praise” by the late Richard Smallwood on repeat all day. He taps us and says, “I want music.”
He also loves straws. One straw. That’s his thing. He fidgets with it constantly. That’s just how his mind works.
MAINA
On page 33, you write: “Life often throws us unexpected curveballs.”
You include this affirmation: “I embrace the unexpected with grace, knowing that each detour is an opportunity to love my child.”
Can you explain that?
CAMILLE JOY
With Mason, it has been diagnosis after diagnosis; congenital heart disease, autism, intellectual disability, ADHD. If you don’t anchor yourself in Christ, it can overwhelm you.
The first thought is often negative. It takes effort to hold on to joy. But every unexpected thing becomes an opportunity to love your child deeper and learn them better.
I allow myself a moment to feel it and then I wipe my tears and keep going.
MAINA
How do you become grateful over circumstances as a parent of a child with special needs?
CAMILLE JOY
I take the seat of gratitude. Jeremiah 29:11 has anchored me through everything.
God has a plan for our future. Mason is His child before he is mine. That is his child. That is his baby. He has a great plan. There I can just take the seat of gratitude over any circumstance. Like you said, as a parent, it doesn’t matter even with special needs or not, there are many things that are going to happen, and you take the seat of gratitude over your circumstance. My mom used to say, we had you and we thought “we can write a book on parenting. This is easy.” And she said, then we had your sister and we said to ourselves, no, that’s not a good idea. It’s kind of one of those things where each child always brings this like – “Oh, yes,” with [raising them].
MAINA
What would you say to people who want to support friends raising children with special needs but don’t know how?
CAMILLE JOY
First, have compassion. Do not give unsolicited advice. Because although we think we know it all, this is a path you have not walked. This path, you have no idea what it takes to raise a child with special needs. When you have a friend and they have a child with special needs, you may say they make it look easy. But you don’t know what goes on behind closed doors.
If someone comes to mind, send them a Starbucks card. Send a text. Let them know they’re seen. Many parents don’t know they have community. Some feel alone. They feel isolated. And they won’t let you know. But when you say, you know, I see you…[it matters]. My sister watched my son recently. And when I went to pick him up, her husband said, “Camille, I don’t know how you guys do it.” He was like, “we only had him for eight hours.” But he saw our strength. See their strength without having to take care of the child. See their strength, even if you don’t understand their journey.
MAINA
When you hit send on the book, did you feel like you said everything you needed to say?
CAMILLE JOY
No. There’s always more to say. There’s always more encouragement to give.
1 Early on Sunday morning,[a] as the new day was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went out to visit the tomb.
2 Suddenly there was a great earthquake! For an angel of the Lord came down from heaven, rolled aside the stone, and sat on it.3 His face shone like lightning, and his clothing was as white as snow.4 The guards shook with fear when they saw him, and they fell into a dead faint.
5 Then the angel spoke to the women. “Don’t be afraid!” he said. “I know you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.6 He isn’t here! He is risen from the dead, just as he said would happen. Come, see where his body was lying.7 And now, go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and he is going ahead of you to Galilee. You will see him there. Remember what I have told you.”
8 The women ran quickly from the tomb. They were very frightened but also filled with great joy, and they rushed to give the disciples the angel’s message.9 And as they went, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they ran to him, grasped his feet, and worshiped him.10 Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t be afraid! Go tell my brothers to leave for Galilee, and they will see me there.”
Death has a sting, a pain that can linger and never leave the soul. The death of Jesus by crucifixion was not a glamorous thing to behold. It was painful, tormenting, heartbreaking and shattering of any form of hope for those who were present. As we read the journey He took, the imagery that plays in our minds reveals how difficult this moment of destiny was for Jesus and His disciples.
When He died, I can imagine a pain of finality that may have been felt by those who loved and cared for Him. Losing someone dear, someone you love and care for is not easy. Losing them to a painful death can be heartbreaking and it can create a traumatic scar that never leaves.
It was important for Jesus to rise up again because the only voice that is capable of shutting down the loud voice of death is life. When He rose on the third day, the powerful testimony of His resurrection was a reminder for believers all over the world to believe, and hope again.
Have you dealt with situations that seem final to you? Are you plagued with thoughts of feeling that life is not worth living? Do you sense or feel that you are at the end of your road? If your answer is yes to any of those questions, you need to fight to live. If you need help, you can get it.
Living and moving conscious of daily decisions that push you to choose better, act wiser, and try for the best takes courage and sometimes can be a battle of the will. However, life has a louder voice than death. The dead cannot breathe air or experience moments.
Do not allow the finality of circumstances, trials, or tribulations make you feel as though life is not fair or worth it. You matter, and your presence in this life, living and learning and growing allows you to make a greater impact than being dead and in the grave. Fight for your dreams, push yourself to achieve the best that you can in this lifetime and believe God to make your life worth living for, because it is.
Prayer
Dear Father,
Thank you for what you did for me through love, by sending Jesus Christ to die for me. I acknowledge the power of the cross and the reminder that you desire for me to live. Help me today to push myself to live life with joy as Jesus died for me to be filled with peace and joy. Teach me how to maximize my days, weeks and months with what matters, and show me how to use my time here on earth wisely. I desire to live a fulfilled life, and I trust you that you will show me how to.
For many young adults, faith is not a straight line—it’s a series of detours, collisions, and unexpected restarts. Troy Vaughn knows this journey intimately. A former Marine who experienced homelessness, addiction, and unresolved trauma, Troy’s life today looks radically different from what he once imagined. As a pastor, CEO, and author, his story is not one of overnight redemption, but of long obedience, deep healing, and learning to lead through service. He tells his story in his new bookFrom Skid Row to CEO: Your Past Doesn’t Disqualify You, It Prepares You.
In this interview about the book, Troy reflects on how faith met him in his darkest seasons, why healing requires honesty, and what it means to follow God when the path forward looks nothing like the plan you had.
Maina:
You talked about writing this book for years. What finally pushed you to sit down and do it?
Troy:
When I was released from the Los Angeles Mission, I knew something was changing. I didn’t have language for it yet, but I sensed that God was asking me to use my voice in a different way—not just preaching, not just leading, but telling the truth about my life.
About a year before that transition, a woman from my church—someone who worked in media—came to me and said, “The Lord told me to help you with your book.” At the time, I didn’t even think I had a book in me. But we started talking. She interviewed me, my family, people close to me. I journal a lot, so we collected years of notes, recordings, memories—everything.
Then after leaving the mission, all that material just sat there. And one day my wife gave me a T‑shirt in a box that said Write On. My mom used to say that to me before she passed away. It felt like God saying, “It’s time.” Not because I was ready—but because obedience doesn’t wait for comfort.
Maina:
What happened inside you as you started revisiting your story?
Troy:
It reopened wounds I thought were healed.
I started having dreams about my father. I’d wake up sweating, shaking. Trauma has a way of hiding until you finally slow down long enough to listen. Writing forced me to stop running.
When I left the Marine Corps, I had created a version of events that helped me survive. But as I revisited my records years later, I realized I had been released untreated. That explained so much—why I struggled, why I self‑medicated, why I spiraled.
For a long time, I thought faith meant ignoring pain. I’ve learned that faith actually invites us to face it—with God.
Maina:
A lot of people hit a breaking point later in life after years of pushing through. Did that resonate with your experience?
Troy:
Absolutely. I didn’t understand why I became addicted. I didn’t know I was self‑medicating. I didn’t have language for depression or trauma—especially growing up in a culture where mental health wasn’t discussed openly.
In our communities, millions of people struggle silently. We’re taught to be strong, to push through, to pray harder. But strength without healing eventually collapses.
For me, that collapse looked like seven years of homelessness. Not because I lacked faith—but because I lacked understanding.
Maina:
What would you say to young adults walking alongside family members—or even friends—who are struggling with mental health or incarceration?
Troy:
We have to stop pretending this isn’t part of our reality.
When Scripture talks about disease, it’s not just physical—it’s anything that creates disorder and disconnection. We avoid hard conversations because they make us uncomfortable. But healing doesn’t happen in silence.
If society feels distant or broken, the Church and the community still have power. Faith isn’t passive. It calls us to show up, to listen, and to respond with compassion instead of judgment. That’s not optional—it’s the mandate of Christ.
Maina:
What do you hope young readers take away from your book?
Troy:
I want them to see themselves.
Everyone has a skid row. It might not be homelessness—it could be anxiety, addiction, burnout, shame, or disappointment. A place where life didn’t turn out the way you expected.
This book isn’t meant to be read quickly and put down. It’s a working read. It asks you to engage, reflect, and be honest. Healing requires participation.
You don’t have to share my story to find yourself in it. You just have to be willing to tell the truth about where you are.
Maina:
You use the phrase “turn into the skid.” What does that mean spiritually?
Troy:
When you’re driving and your car hits a skid, you’re taught not to panic or pull away—you turn into it. That always stayed with me.
In life, when things fall apart, we do the opposite. We avoid, numb, distract, and perform. But the way through is actually inward.
Faith doesn’t help us escape reality—it gives us courage to face it. When we turn into the skid, we invite God into the mess instead of pretending it isn’t there.
Maina:
You’ve led organizations as a CEO. What did leadership teach you about faith?
Troy:
True leadership is servanthood.
Jesus didn’t lead by control or status—He led by proximity. He invested deeply in people and empowered them to carry the mission forward.
Too often, leadership in our culture is about being served. But the gospel flips that model upside down. Leadership should heal communities, not exploit them. When leaders forget that, imbalance follows—whether in business, ministry, or society.
Maina:
Seven years is a long time to feel stuck. How did you know you were finally moving forward?
Troy:
I realized I couldn’t do it alone.
Independence is celebrated, but isolation is dangerous. Scripture tells us two are better than one for a reason. Healing happens in connection.
When systems are broken—whether it’s mental health, homelessness, or injustice—you’ll always find division. Agreement creates movement. Community creates momentum.
Maina:
Looking back now, is this the life you imagined for yourself?
Troy:
Not at all. I thought I’d be a cartoonist.
I still draw. That creative part of me never left—it just waited. I’m actually working on a children’s book now called Randy the Red Ant’s Road to Redemption. It’s my story told through illustrations.
I’ve learned that calling isn’t cancelled—it evolves. God doesn’t waste any part of us.
UF Editor Allen Reynolds interviewed Denya & Cellus Hamilton, co-founders of the faith based company Sow and Tell about their annual Faith & Work conference focused on black and brown people, “There Will Be Fruit.”
Allen
The first question I have for you all is tell me about what is there will be fruit? Can you tell us about what you guys do and who you are?
Denya
Yes, for sure. So yeah, we are the co-founders of Sow and Tell, it started as a creative agency where we offer services such as social media, marketing, strategy, implementation, artist development, writing sessions and now events. And our signature event that we have annually in the spring is there will be fruit. Really the goal is just to create a space where entrepreneurs, professionals and creatives can come together and just be reminded that God can use them in the marketplace and the industry that he has called us to, whether that is in marketing, hospitality, and tech, [or others] and to also connect each other, right? Because we cannot go on this journey alone.
Cellus
Yeah, the only thing I’ll add to that is that what makes it unique, particularly is that in New York and in many other cities the faith and work space is predominantly white. It’s just a completely different space that you don’t see any black people in the room. You don’t see any people of color in the room at all. We allow this space to be led and ran by black people and people of color that can really share not only their expertise, but what they’re also up to in the faith and work field. And that’s what makes it unique and special.
Allen
Can you talk about what is it that people could expect going to that conference connecting with what you guys do at there will be fruit?
Cellus
Yeah, one of the incredible things that we see is people really love the fact that you feel like it’s an exciting place, an exciting atmosphere. You’ve been to places where you feel like no one’s here is actually intentional about meeting one another, but you get this sense that people show up feeling like, I know that the people in the room have something that they can offer me. I know that the people in the room have something that they can help me with. I know that they’re on a similar journey. And so the excitement comes from the people wanting to actually genuinely connect and then us providing spaces where they’re going to get a chance to sit at tables and be kind of positioned where they can meet people in their similar industries and their fields, but also have moments where they’re able to relax around a meal and have some entertainment in the middle of sessions and things like that. It’s really just a space where people can come together, feel like they’re going to really connect, not just be talked to, but actually get a chance to leave with some connections with people that they can walk their industries and their career paths with. And I feel like that’s what kind of draws people each year.
Denya
Yeah, I always think people come for the content, but stay for the connections and the people. I’ve seen the fruit, literally pun intended, of these spaces. It’s not just like a conference. I believe what we’re doing here is like a movement because the faith and work space is so fresh to our audience, this next generation of believers who are passionate about their work, but also passionate about Jesus. We’re coming here and knowing that at least we have two things in common. We work and we love Jesus. And that expectation is there, but once they get to the room, number one, they experience the Holy Spirit because what we do is led by God. His presence is there,[He] goes before us. And then not just like coming in, seeking people who could help us, but also seeking people who we can serve. So that’s what I’ve experienced as well. So, a prime example is, I met a young lady, she found us on Eventbrite, randomly decided to sign up to come to our event. She bought a VIP ticket, which included the VIP mixer the night before. The VIP mixer is that Friday night before the Saturday conference, where it’s a more intimate space, kind of like a kickoff in a sense, where we invite our sponsors, our partners, our speakers, and our VIP guests to just come to know one another and get hype about what they’re about to experience the next day. And so, this young lady came [on] faith, and she was just blown away by everything. She came to the conference the next day, and she also does production. She recorded a lot of content. And from there, she was already in the process of launching, but she launched her podcast called Minds of Renewal. And from there, she was able to connect with a future guest on her podcast who has a faith-based athletics company. And so just seeing their podcast come to life, because they met at, There Will Be Fruit, has been just so cool to see. And from there, she’s also led Bible studies for ministries that she was encountered with at the conference as well. So just seeing like the tangible outcome of these Kingdom collaborations has been so amazing to see.
Cellus
Yes, that’s it. People come to the conference, they work together with people they met at the conference, and their dreams kind of flourish in ways that they always bring back to, this is someone I met in the room at the conference, and they just, we’ve stayed in contact, and we’ve continued to build from there. And it’s great.
Allen
Wow, that honestly, it sounds like you guys are creating fertile ground, you’re tilling fertile soil. So, when people come and bring their seeds, like that’s why there will be fruit, like the images just coming together in my mind. For folks who may be struggling to find how they can be faithful and still at the same time, do work in a world that’s complex and industries that feel more uncertain than ever, where there may not be as many opportunities, what advice would you give them about being able to be faithful and still be impactful or successful as they’re trying to [be in the] world of faith and work as believers?
Cellus
Yeah, one of the things that we’ve uniquely began to think about is how we can speak to the growing population of people who don’t find themselves in industry, where the line is as clearly drawn between secular and sacred work. And we recognize that with the changing industries, with AI innovation, and with all these things, there is a need for people to learn that there is some flexibility in what it means to be “faithful”, even when the lines where [are] not clearly drawn, whether this is sacred or secular work. And so that’s been something we’ve been leaning into. And we’ve also just been recognizing that we all have multiple skills. And a lot of times we lean specifically toward maybe something that we’re most passionate about, but we may not be as perceptive to how our other skills can open up lanes that are necessary and that kind of are in the direction of the world is going. So we also encourage people to look at all the things that they’re good at and kind of figure out how they can maybe spread their gifts around. And we think it’s very encouraging as well in a changing world.
Denya
And I would just add on to say that, yeah, like work is just an opportunity for worship. So wherever you’re placed, God is using you. And I was reading a devotional the other day about faith and work, and I talked about how the marketplace is the most time we’ll spend in and the most influential. So why not just like allow God’s will to happen in that space through you, whether it is with a co-worker or a boss or, you know, people that you contract with. And using these as opportunities to be the hands and feet of Jesus to live out what we’re learning on Sunday mornings or whenever you worship is what we want to just give advice [about]. Advice on who and [whose we are] in this faith and work journey.
Allen
What advice would you give someone young trying to figure out how to walk in [faith] and be fruitful?
Denya
That’s so good. Something that came to my heart when you answer that, because it’s so it’s so big to want to kind of like raise up the next generation or your successors and equip them. And the first thing I would say number one, like stay connected to the vine, right? John [talks about] how Jesus is that true vine. So once you’re connected with him, you understand what your purpose is and then [you’re] not just connected with him, but connecting with community. God offers us obviously perfect community with him, but then He allows us to be in community with each other. And what we mean is like getting plugged into a local church, getting it plugged into, you know, Bible study, worship, and then events like these where, you know, you can learn how to be an effective professional entrepreneur or creative in God’s way. Because at the end of the day, we’re all being discipled by something, whether that’s the world or, you know, the church. And so, we need to be just positioned in a way where God can use us and effectively according to his word. Stay connected to Him, stay connected to each other, and seek wise counsel in any space that you’re in, whether that is the professional space or a spiritual space, because God is a holistic God.
Cellus
I’ll add that I often consider the things that most burden you. Like I tell people often that there is something that burdens you about the world. There is something that deeply gets you passionate to the point where you want to debate it, you want to fix it, you want to talk about it and dream about ways that it could be different. And a lot of times within those passions that the Lord has placed inside of us, there is also the capacity for us to lean into it and be the answer to some of those problems. And so I just encourage people who are on that path trying to figure out where they can be fruitful, think about what bothers you about the world, connect that to the mission of the kingdom and lean into it and do something about it. And I think those are some good tools to help you kind of figure out where you’re supposed to be.
Allen
Tell me how did the people reach you and get connected to There Will Be Fruit?
Denya
Yes, we’d love to have you. So next year’s conference is Saturday, April 11, 2026 here in New York City. You can stay updated by following us on social media on Instagram at therewillbefruit or check out our website, sowandtell.co.
Cheryl McKissack Daniel is the latest in a 200+ year old legacy of Black architects, engineers, construction workers and designers who have literally built some of the most iconic structures in America. UF contributor Maina Mwaura sat down with her to talk about her book The Black Family Who Built America: The McKissacks, chronicling her family’s history and heritage of being black builders in the United States and beyond.
For Camille Joy, motherhood did not unfold the way she imagined it would. Instead, it invited her into a deeper reliance on faith, a slower understanding of joy, and a kind of love shaped by unexpected challenges. In her book Moments of Joy, Joy writes to parents who are learning how to hold gratitude and grief in the same hands. Through honest storytelling and gospel-centered hope, she reminds readers that God is present not only in answered prayers, but also in the daily, unseen moments where endurance is formed and joy quietly takes root. The full audio interview is below with written excerpts edited for clarity and length below.
CAMILLE JOY
Allen
Cellus
