UrbanFaith Editor Allen Reynolds had the privilege to interview Marlene Harris-Taylor and Myesha Watkins, co-hosts of the Living for We: Keep Ya Head Up Season 2 Podcast. This season confronts how communities are working together to prevent and intervene in the cycles of gun violence that disproportionally impact urban areas. The co-hosts share stories and insights on how churches and people of faith can play a key role in Community Violence Interventions (CVI). You can stream the Living For We podcast wherever you get your podcasts or watch on Youtube and more information on the series is available at Evergreen Podcasts
The excerpts below have been edited for clarity and length. You can watch the full interview above.
Allen
You all talked a lot and gave us what this season is all about focusing on gun violence. Why is it important for us to still be talking about this with so many other things going on in our world?
Myesha
Prevention saves lives. Like when you think about gun violence, one of the things me and Marlene spent a lot of time talking about is like the underlying issues. What are the root causes of violence? Lorenzo, who’s [a] guest on our show, he said he lost his best friend, Caden Coleman, who was 10 years old, to gun violence. And he said, “sometimes we just need a hot meal.” When you think about communities where food insecurity is high, and you’ll have [someone] who is like,
“We get food stamps. My mom had to sell her food stamps in exchange for cash because we don’t have cash. So, I go to the corner store, and I steal peanut butter and jelly. And from that instance, now I’m being impacted by the system because I did a theft. But the root cause was that I was hungry.”
So, when we think about the overall crises that are impacting all our communities, this is all interconnected. And when people put CVI (Community Violence Interventions) to the side to act like it’s not a response to lack of resources, lack of accessibility to stable housing or healthcare or food, then they’re crazy. What we’re trying to do is show them how all of this is connected from several lenses. And I think Marlene can talk about the different lenses that we brought to the couch. Like it was more than just community.
Marlene
Yeah. And I also want to say that there’s sometimes there’s people who say, well, you know, gun violence is down, you know, we look at the overall stats nationally and in our large urban centers, gun violence is down. But that all depends on where you live. Yeah. For people in certain communities and certain zip codes, gun violence is not down in their world. They’re still hearing shootings every night. They’re still losing friends and family to gun violence. And for the people who live in those communities that are not directly impacted, and they think, well, that’s not my problem, because I don’t live in those areas. Gun violence doesn’t care, you know, a bullet doesn’t care who you are. So many times, the violence, the gun violence that is impacting these communities comes to other parts of the city. None of us are safe unless all of us are safe.
Allen
Myesha, any words of wisdom for you on how you saw faith play a role in this work of doing violence prevention?
Myesha
I would say too, and all that Marlene has shared, we have had church on the couch several times, praise God! There’s a national organization called Live Free USA whose main job is to bring faith leaders and violence prevention [organizations] together and not for it to be viewed as separate. And I think churches, especially in black communities, are on every single corner. And we are calling on pastors or calling on people to save not only from the pulpit, but also from the blocks. How do you come out and show that you have a safe space? You have a brave space, and your only goal is not to just preach to eulogy. But how do you speak life as a young people in an accepting way by calling them in to say there are other options and faith is one of them. I just went to the in Cincinnati. I’m here, the national underground railroad freedom center. And even on the posters, at the hardest times as a black person, you see that faith was at the center. When things get hard as they are right now in these moments, especially around gun violence and this administration, black people tend to just cling a little bit closer to God. So hopefully faith leaders are saying, “I know exactly where I need to be.” And even if that’s doing community walks and praying around the radius of my church, that’s enough to show the presence of God. It’s just not in church, but it’s wherever believers are. And so, I’m excited about the work that Live Free USA is doing, the conversations that are happening on this podcast, because it’s going to be some, “amen and thank you Jesus,” but thoughts and prayers by themselves are not enough. But collectively with lived experience and other organizations, thoughts and prayers can go a long way.
Allen
What advice would you give to young people who want to make a difference in their communities, especially around issues like this of breaking that cycle of violence or even making the impact so they can create safe and brave spaces?
Marlene
Well, I’ll start by saying you can begin at whatever age that you are in whatever space that you are in doing the work. Our episode that just dropped today featured young Lorenzo that Myesha brought up earlier, 10 years old. This young man lost his best friend to gun violence, and he decided he wanted to go talk to the mayor. He asked his mentor to go buy him a suit. So, he dressed up in his best suit, went to a community meeting with the mayor, and many other city leaders were and challenged them to say, what are you doing to save people like me? He’s like, will I die? Will I be like my best friend? And I got to tell you, Allen, he riveted the entire room. He ended up with a standing ovation from that speech. And he has been on several media outlets since then. He is already making a difference at 10 years old. So, no matter what age you are, no matter what your circumstances, by speaking out, by getting involved in this work, you can make a difference in your community.
Myesha
There are so many Lorenzo’s in our communities. Like, how do we see those skills and build them up? I think about young people who are able to organize a group of people to do anything that may not be the safest. How do we utilize those same skills as an organizer to do those things well? So young people have skills that they may not be utilizing in the right way as of now, but are skills of amazing leadership. How do we speak to that to say, “you have these great skills. I see you doing something else with them. But what would it look like to give you resources to do something well with them to keep your community safe?” So, I guess my message to young people is you are not the problem. This is a systemic and generational issue. This is caused [by] underinvestment and divestment. This is [caused by] generational trauma that is in our bodies. But what we can control is how we respond to interpersonal conflict. Interpersonal conflict and the urgency to respond to disrespect is at the all-time high. If I tell you, Allen, I don’t like your glasses, you can be so offended that you may want to handle this conflict with a firearm. How do we say it’s not worth it? Your comments aren’t worth it. Your attacks are not worth it. Nothing is worth losing my life. So, to young people who are listening, disrespect should not be the reason that you lose your life or take someone else’s life. There are other options, so many amazing options. And we actually need you. It is necessary for you to live. It’s necessary for you to be here. And it’s very unnecessary for you to risk your life or someone else is because of a conflict. It’s very preventable. And I know it sounds simple because when I was your age, I probably wouldn’t let nobody talk to me crazy. But I lived a little bit more and I want you to live. We’re here for you. I hope our podcast serve as a listening ear and a space of dialogue. But yeah, just live a little bit more so you can see that some of the decisions and choices that you are making is not worth it because baby, listen, if Instagram was around when I was younger, I probably would be in trouble. I’m glad that I’m here to tell the story. So, stay safe. We want you to be alive and free.
Marlene
Myesha, I’m so glad you mentioned Instagram because one of the things that we’ve learned. I’ve learned is so many times people get into beef on Instagram that then comes out into life. And then, something that started as this small beef on Instagram becomes somebody losing their life as a result of it. Social media is driving a lot of this, but she’s right. The systemic things behind it are really what’s driving the gun violence in our communities. And we need to know that that it’s not our fault that our communities have been under this strain of underinvestment that is there’s been this prison from school to prison pipeline that has taken so many men out of our communities. We heard over and over again from the young men who are guests on the show, that they didn’t have a father, that they were raised by their mother. And they felt this real pressure at a young age like 10, 11, 12, to help their family to survive. And many times that’s why they picked up the gun. They were just trying to survive and help their family survive. And that’s a theme we hear over and over on the program. People need to know there’s not their fault that they’re in that situation.
Tamika Mallory was raised in activism as her parents worked with Rev. Al Sharpton’s National Action Network. She was also raised in the church, taking seriously the role that her faith community played in advocating for justice and shaping people’s lives. She is known for her activism for black women in a world where civil rights are being threatened more every day. Her memoir: I Lived to Tell The Story shares her story in a moment where her story is more important than ever. UrbanFaith contributor Maina Mwaura sat down with Tamika to talk about her memoir and what she sees in the world today.
When we left off yesterday, Jesus had committed destruction of property by flipping over tables of transaction and exploitation and uprooting the things that shifted His Father’s house from being relational and full of salvation. That left us to consider what tables we need to flip over, beginning with some of the ones in our hearts. What a mighty God we serve!
We pick up today with Jesus who is heading to the temple, and starts off the morning cursing a fig tree, condemning it saying it would never produce again. While we can argue about how harsh this is or isn’t, what is irrefutable is that the tree wasn’t doing its job, and Jesus had enough. And it seems as though, because He is headed to the temple, He’s not going to be stopped by the trees that aren’t doing their job. He already dealt with that yesterday, and is about to encounter it again.
When Jesus arrives at the temple, He attracts a crowd because, well, He’s Jesus. The crowd He attracts meets Him on the temple floor, and Matthew’s Gospel starts off this encounter with the authorities questioning his authority. Those who are systematically in places of authority and power want to know who or what validates Jesus as an authority figure. One could argue that there is an issue here of will. Because the Pharisees might’ve had the authority, but Jesus Christ, who is amongst the people, has the power. It’s a dangerous world when systemic authority is threatened by the people who have been empowered. I am more than sure that if we look at lived experiences Jesus shows us that just because you have authority, doesn’t mean you have power. Our faith is one that often reminds us that human-given authority is no match for God-given authority. And Jesus responds with a question, that frankly the only way it can be reconciled is with a divine answer.
We then pick-up Jesus who is engaging in what I refer to as the ultimate roasting session. He keeps sharing these parables about working in the vineyard, AND the treatment of the workers. He likens himself as the son of God, to a servant, a worker in the vineyard, and a slave. He keeps reinforcing that He is with the marginalized least of these. Thanks be to God for a savior who constantly positions himself to be for, with, and by the people. It is reassurance to us that no matter who you are, as long as you’re doing your work in the vineyard, serving the kingdom, Jesus says that you’ll inherit the kingdom of God. The Pharisees don’t like this, much like many modern authority figures, and are plotting to murder him. But if the words of Jesus be true: for Himself, for the people, and for us; no plot, no plan, no attack, no assassination, can stop the work of the people. Nothing can negate that we shall inherit the kingdom of God. Get to and keep to your work. Even if you don’t have authority, you always have the power to do your work in the vineyard.
This week isn’t over, and we have a few more lessons to learn, but today, think about what it means to do your work anyhow. After all, Friday soon come….
Republished with permission from Ideastream Public Media.
Cleveland, OH – Ideastream Public Media announces the release of Living For We, Season 2: Keep Ya Head Up, in collaboration with Evergreen Podcasts. This video podcast, which premiered February 11th, 2025, is part of Connecting the Dots between Race and Health, an ongoing initiative for Director of Engaged Journalism Marlene Harris-Taylor and the larger team at Ideastream. “While season one focused on livability for Black women in Cleveland, season two explores the most pressing mental health epidemic facing the country: gun violence.”
“It’s the number one cause of death for young people,” says Marlene Harris-Taylor, executive producer and co-host on the project. “We hope to bring this topic to the forefront of community conversations and change the current dynamic.”
This season introduces a new co-host: Myesha Watkins, director of the Cleveland Peacemakers. Her organization is dedicated to providing resources to victims of gun violence, and to preventing cycles of retaliation that often arise in the wake of a shooting.
“Her expertise is a welcome addition to the show,” states Mark Rosenberger, Chief Content Officer at Ideastream Public Media. “She understands the root causes of gun violence, she knows what needs to be done to interrupt these patterns, and which community leaders are already in the trenches, doing the work.”
With a video component of the podcast, available for free on YouTube, audiences can expect to hear and see from those leaders this season. They’ll also be confronted with compelling stories from those most affected by gun violence—including young perpetrators.
“Every bullet fired creates two victims: the person in front of the gun, and the one pulling the trigger,” Harris-Taylor explains. When it comes to street violence, most shooters are hurt by guns long before they ever use one. Breaking the cycle means understanding what led them to pick up a weapon in the first place. As one guest on the podcast notes, “There’s always a story behind it. It’s never for fun.”
This season aims to be a resource for the community. The team has assembled a landing page for anyone in need of resources, whether they’re a victim of gun violence, worried for a family member, looking to escape their situation, or even re-entering civilian life after time away.
Harris-Taylor and Watkins understand that the solutions have been in place for a long time. They just need funding and support to be more widely effective. “That’s why we also hope to reach leaders in positions of power,” Harris-Taylor says. “To forward the conversation.”
Episode 4 Something Greater Than Me addresses how the church can play a role specifically in breaking the cycle.
In this episode we go to church, with three men who were once entangled in street hustle culture and ended up behind bars. Now they have created a ministry that’s reaches out to those with misguided ideas of manhood. Stanley Frankfurt tells an incredible story about how he was backed into a corner, it was either him or me, but he believes divine intervention kept him from facing a murder charge. He was introduced to Jesus in prison and he is one of the founders of Canton, Ohio-based Young Christian Professionals. The community organization was started by a group of men when they were still incarcerated. It’s now helping others reintegrate into life on the other side of the walls. We also talk to Bobby Johnson who provided a Godly example for Stanley and our third guest Deshawn Johnson in prison. Bobby experienced some harsh realities as a child but at 8 years old he was told there was something greater inside of him. It took going to prison before he could fully embrace his calling to mentor and minister to other men. Deshawn Johnson also joins us and shares how he is thriving as a business owner. He opened The Experience Barber and Beauty Shop in Akron as a place where men can relax and share in a safe environment. He also provides jobs for formerly incarcerated men. The Young Christian Professionals mentoring program is now available in five different prisons across Ohio.
Living For We, Season 2: Keep Ya Head Up is part of the Connecting the Dots between Race and Health Podcast: Living For We series. Living For We is made possible by generous support from the Dr. Donald J. Goodman and Ruth Weber Goodman Philanthropic Fund of the Cleveland Foundation. You can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and many other podcast platforms. Find more details about Living For We at ideastream.org. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or anywhere you find podcasts.
UrbanFaith interviewed minister, psychotherapist, and author Dr. Sarita Lyons about her new book Church Girl which is a comprehensive look at the blessing, challenges, and opportunities for black women to live fully as believers and part of the body of Christ. UrbanFaith editor Allen Reynolds believes it is one of the most important books of the year. The full interview is above. Excerpts below have been edited for clarity.
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Allen
What inspired you to write this book? You clearly, you’ve spent a lot of time doing counseling work, and then you spent a lot of time doing ministry work. Why did you decide to write a book to help black women and to help black churches to deal with everything that concerns you?
Dr. Lyons
Yeah, great question. So the thing that I’ve been saying when I get that question is, I really did feel God called me to this. I always felt like one day maybe I would write a book, but never did I imagine I would write a book about this or like this. And I’m so honored to be the vessel that God is using to do this work in the earth at this time, because I do think this is a Kairos moment, right? This, it’s a timing, everything that God does has a very specific timing. And so when I think about the lives of black women, Christian women, the church, and then the influence of the world and all the demonic schemes that are being used to get black women to not really grab hold of the faith and put their confidence in Christ. It is a very prophetic work and it’s doing damage on the kingdom of darkness. That’s the intention. I would also say as a black Christian woman, I wrote this book because Toni Morrison once said, if there’s a book you need to read and it doesn’t exist, write it. And so I have written the book that I have needed that I believe so many black women have needed from my time leading black women and teaching black women and ministering the women and counseling at the local church and in private practice. I’m like, wow, this feels like the book we’ve been craving and wanting that just really hasn’t existed. Orthodox in orthodox in terms of teaching and theology, but clear and biblical in orthopraxy, not sacrificing justice, not sacrificing human felt needs, as if they aren’t gospel driven needs and concerns. So it’s, it’s balanced in the ways in which oftentimes books that do, you know, target black women aren’t often balanced in that way. Yeah, or the other concern that many black Christian women have often felt is we’ve read a lot of good theology about biblical womanhood and what it means to be a Christian woman, but we have in some ways felt erased or missing in the message. And the star of every book, the star of every teaching should always be Jesus, but we do know the importance of contextualization. And so church girl seeks to contextualize the experience of black Christian women in a world where we’ve experienced various forms of opposition, where we have our own unique internal struggles and opposition to really living the lives that God has called us all to live. And so I jokingly say a lot of times that you know this isn’t a new gospel this isn’t a new gospel vision for black women that isn’t similar for other cultures, but in many ways I’m writing The Wiz for their Wizard of Oz.
Allen
One of the things that’s come up a lot in our culture is this thing of church hurt, and you spend two chapters kind of dealing and wrestling with it. You start out talking and comparing it to The Color Purple and Sophia and Celie. And can you tell us about what is church hurt? I mean, I know folks in our audience have felt it. It’s causing folks to leave the church, and you give ways to not only address that, but deal with it and invite people to stay in the faith, right, and to stay faithful. Can you talk about the church hurt?
Dr. Lyons
Yeah, so I mean, I think we could come up with a thousand different definitions, but the name speaks for itself. It’s any kind of injury, emotional, physical, spiritual harm that is done in God’s house among people who are professing to be believers. And oftentimes, I mean the four walls of the local church. But I also think that there can be global church hurt, meaning just when different systems of church functioning and ideology like nationalism and patriotism end up becoming more important to churchgoers than just human life, people who bear the Imago Dei, the image of God. That is a global way people can also be hurt. I’m talking about the fact that church hurt is really distressing and particularly like thinking about Harpo and Sophia. I’m making the point that all of us black girls, we have a Harpo, you know what I mean? We have someone that was supposed to love us, someone that was supposed to protect us, someone that said they were committed to us that creates an injury and Sophia had to fight Harpo. That’s her husband. No woman wants to fight, but you definitely don’t want to have to fight in your own house. And I think one of the scars, the wounds of church hurt, is that there is this expectation that people who say they love God and preach grace, mercy, truth, holiness, faithfulness, and living abundant life are not committing sins. This is the last place kind of our psyche ever expects to be hurt. We need to have a paradigm shift about that because the church is not made up of any perfect people, but we serve a perfect God. But there is a standard. We should be held to a higher standard. Church should be safe for black women. Church should be a place where black women are affirmed, not because we’re black women, but because we are image bearers because we are the daughters of the Most High God. Because like here’s the thing; don’t say women are the weaker vessel when it’s helpful for you to maintain authority. But then we’re not the weaker vessel when it’s time to protect, when it’s time to love, or when it’s time to care for well. So the first chapter is really naming the church hurt. And [it doesn’t] matter whether you’re a man, woman, black, white, or other. Everyone has a story of church hurt, some of which I talk about in the book that other people may say “I relate to that. I get that.” I really tried to spend a lot of time though I couldn’t represent every black woman because we’re not a monolith. I really tried to think of what the unique ways are black women experience church hurt that may not show up in other circles for instance being white. Sometimes depending on if you’re in a predominantly white church, or if you’re in a black church that has still prescribed to whiteness being standard of holiness and righteousness and goodness, instead of being able to see that the kingdom of God can hold the diversity of culture. We can all be godly and worship God in the uniqueness of our culture and still be on brand as Christians. And so, I’m thinking about the emotional psychological hurt, the physical hurt, the abuse, the being mis-seen, the being overseeing, even the hurt that we experience when we don’t put more emphasis on the brother sister relationship. How we [in the church] have romanticized and sexualized relationships between men and women so much that we don’t know how to just be faithful siblings in the faith, how both men and women are injured when we do not highlight that aspect of our relationship with one another. One of the other ways that we’re hurt is not just from the perpetrator, but we’re also hurt when there are people who are yes men, and yes women, and there’s cover up, and there’s no accountability, and people who have injured us are never sat down. There’s no discipline, there’s no restorative process. We’re not talking about crucifying people.
Now some people need to get arrested and go to jail for some stuff. But most of the time what people are experiencing is the kind of hurt that if we apply biblical principles to it, I believe that restoration can happen I believe that we can come out stronger. And in many instances, reconciliation can happen so that people don’t all have to leave the church every time they get hurt, because to be hurt is a normal part of the human experience. The only person that’s not going to hurt you in a maladaptive way is God, is your relationship with Jesus Christ.
So, I think that’s part of [it.] Not only are you going to get hurt. But if you tell the truth, you are going to hurt. And one of the things I really wanted to do in the chapters on church hurt was bring balance to it. I think the only place we often ever have a vision to see ourselves is as the victim. We never see ourselves as the victimizer. We never see how we have caused hurt to someone else that someone right now is going through a healing because of something you said or didn’t say or something you did. And so we don’t want to blame because people who are actually victims need to be protected and taken care of and stood up for and they need to be healed. But we also don’t want to pretend that all our hands are always clean. And so that in the same way we need forgiveness from people, we also have someone else needs our repentance. I say in the book that healing from church hurt is a form of spiritual warfare, because the enemy would love for us to get broken and devour one another and be Christian cannibals and tear each other up. But healing, he doesn’t want that because as long as we stay broken, we can walk around with our proverbial church hurt baggage. We can then project the offenses that come through people onto a holy, perfect, righteous, loving God so that He begins to bear the blame and responsibility of the unfortunate sinful acts of the people that represented him. And instead of then having problems with church people, we start having problems with the Groom of the Church. We start having problems with Christ. And so, we don’t walk away from just people sometimes we end up walking away from the faith. And because the devil is intent on robbing God of glory, the breakdown of the integrity of the local church is one way he wants to rob God of glory, get people to distrust God, distrust the community of faith that God says we need for our own sanctification and growth from spiritual immaturity to spiritual maturity. And so [the enemy] wins when we don’t heal. He wins when we stay bitter. He wins when we stay broken. He wins when we stay unreconciled. The way God wins is when we solve problems with biblical prescriptions. When we do things God’s way, from discipline to correction to restoration, we usually get God’s results.
Allen
What advice would you give to young girls and young women, trying to find their places church girls?
Dr. Lyons
I would just say, one of the main ways you just grow as a Christian is you have to grow in biblical community. Meaning [no] isolating yourself. This mantra of “it’s just me and God,” that is a lie from the pit of hell. God doesn’t even exist in isolation. God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit exist in community three persons in one. I think that is one of the ways we protect ourselves from the attacks of the enemy, from false teaching, from all the things that help us drift from the faith is to be in strong biblical community with other brothers and sisters who are like minded. And we also need discipleship. Discipleship is not just finding one super saint to lock arms with, go to Starbucks and get coffee, and do fun things. That can be sometimes a part of it, but really, we need to see every aspect of the church as a means of discipleship. You showing up on Sunday and listening to the preached word, you’re being discipled, you going to women’s ministry or men’s ministry or singles or marriage ministry, you serving in the local church. Those are all contexts where you can receive discipleship. I also think really got to put our hand to the plow. And because in the context of serving the local church, not just being a consumer is when you get to be around other people you get to learn the ways of Christ. You get to give up yourself and give yourself over to the work of the Kingdom. And that’s how you grow.
I would say, not even to say this last because this is definitely like last but definitely not least, prioritize becoming a biblical scholar. And I want to say biblical scholar and theologian, not just like I read my Bible, I did my devo time, but get in the book get in the text. If you’re using devotionals use them as supplements, use them as vitamins. Vitamins are good but they’re not food to live off. Prioritize eating that book, eating that word. Research has shown, even if it was just four days a week. If a person reads the Word of God, four days a week, their life would drastically change. I tell people read something every day, because there are things we do every day like brush our teeth. We wake up, we care for our bodies, we do things every day because it just has become a natural pattern. Eating God’s Word has to become a natural pattern. You grow by the Word of God. If you get into the Book, it will drastically change your life. When God delivered me from African spiritualism and all the ways in which I drifted from the faith and into tarot cards and kyrie shells and astrology and you know just all the altar building and ancestor worship, I had a Bible that looks spanking brand new that I found where God confronted me and convicted me of my idolatry. And all I did every single day, whether I understood it or not, is I read that Book. And I still have that Book, and it is tattered and worn and half of Romans is missing. And the pages are all crinkled up, because it was in the Word of God that God strengthened me and changed my mind and changed my desires. It is getting in the Word of God every single day that will literally revolutionize your life. I would also just say, hey, being a church girl is about being unapologetic. Like you can’t be afraid of cancel culture. You can’t be out here trying to fit in with the world and be on brand as a Christian. We [must] be willing to be soldiers. There are people in other countries who are literally dying for the faith. Surely you can handle not being liked or somebody thinking you a Jesus freak. If being a Jesus freak is the worst thing you could ever be called in this life, I mean, you have surely picked up a jewel to go in your crown. We have to we have to interrogate our lives and say, God saved me from the world. But the intention was to send me back into the world and be a light and be a disciple and be an ambassador. Be a living epistle being read by man because God is making his appeal to the lost world through us. Sometimes you’re the only version of God or church that a lost person will ever met meet on their way to being a believer. And so, if we’re a living epistle, you want to look at your life and say girl, am I telling the story correctly? When people look at me, when they observe my speech, when they observe my walk, when they observe where I go, and what I do, and what I share on my social media and what I even like on social media, because I’ve been tripped out by some of the Christians liking some wild stuff, do I look like I’m a serious Christian? Do I look like I’m a serious Christian? And if not, what are the things that God says you got to die to in order to walk in obedience to [Him]? Like you just can’t live in your kind of way and call yourself a Christian. We shouldn’t just live your kind of way and just call ourselves sliding into heaven. Stealing home base ain’t the way to go. It’s not the way to go. I want to I want us to get our weight up biblically, but I’m challenging us like stop playing church. Stop being on the sidelines stop just attending on Sunday and living wild and reckless and sleeping around and smoking blunts and you ain’t got glaucoma and talking crazy and sharing dumb silly memes and laughing at the church, laughing at all kinds of foolishness. Because what you laugh at you normalize. Check the music you listen to, what are you feeding yourself? Because here’s the thing, whatever you feed will grow and whatever you starve will die. How are you feeding your flesh? And how are you starving your spirit? The goal isn’t to starve the spirit; make it weak make it impotent. [It’s] to nourish and feed the spirit man so that that can be the giant. [Then] the flesh can be the little person, but we are functioning opposite of that. I see too many of my sisters just out here, really wanting to figure out how to be a carnal Christian. And that’s corny. Being a carnal Christian is corny. We need to stop it. Be unapologetic, be bold, be courageous the Bible says the righteous are bold as a line. God wants to use you sis. And the enemy is sitting back laughing at us as he eats up our lives with us looking like we serve him and not serve God. It’s time to come up and that’s what Church Girl is doing. Get this gospel vision for your identity for your purpose, for your healing, for your rest, for your ability to live unapologetic in Babylon, so you can flourish and stop drifting away from the faith. Or my last chapter, go after the gone girl, the missing black woman from the church and help guide her home like God guided me home when I was the prodigal daughter out in the world. The book isn’t meant to beat up on you, but it is a clarion call that says where’s the remnant? Where’s the remnant? Stand up! Stand up to the glory of God.
Maya Moore was a WNBA Champion, MVP, and superstar when she left the game in her prime to pursue more justice in the US criminal justice system. The incarcerated man she advocated for, Jonathan Irons, had been advocating for prison reform from the inside. Now the two are married and sharing their story through their book Love & Justice. UrbanFaith sat down with Maya and Jonathan to talk about their incredible story following Jesus to sacrifice and live out their faith by seeking justice for the least of these. Excerpts from the interview below have been edited for length and clarity.
Allen
We are here with Jonathan Irons and Maya Moore Irons to talk about their book Love and Justice, the story of their incredible journeys; Jonathan in advocating for justice and Maya in joining in that justice fight after being a WNBA superstar. Can you talk about just that how the context and the environments that you are you all were in, allowed you to see that injustice in different ways?
Jonathan
I mean, it’s not hard. Like kids that are going on struggling and poverty and in situations that are just unfair and disadvantaged. I volunteered with kids down at the school called Peace Prep. And like they are aware, like they’re very intelligent. They are aware that they’re not getting the same type of resources and as other kids in other schools. They are aware that their city is riddled with addicts and there’s criminal activity that’s going on. They think police don’t like them and don’t care about them. And I won’t say that they’re making it up. Like I had so many different examples of things that just showed me that I wouldn’t be treated like everybody else [growing up]. And it just felt like people were being dismissive. Like my teacher didn’t like that I had so much energy. I was always up and down up and down up and down. Maya had a teacher that basically allowed her to stand around and use her energy and she turned into sports and encouraged her like, burn your energy off. Be a kid. Like for me, I didn’t have that experience. And I was aware of that. I was aware that I was treated different than other kids. I went I went to a friend’s house and they had a toilet. I didn’t have one. I’m like, man, what is that? They were like “oh that’s a toilet. That’s where we use the bathroom.” I’m used to a five gallon bucket and bathing in a tin tub. And then fast forward into prison. Like, I’m seeing like the racial inequality. I’m like, how is it that we’re the minority here [in America], but there are more black people that are in prison than there are any other race. I don’t understand this. What’s going on? And then I started to dig into it. I started to look at statistics. I started to read case law and treaties. I started to watch the news. I started asking questions. I started to let my curiosity just run wild. And I got to really see like all the injustices that are happening, happening around me. It got so bad that I overcame my own fear and I started to advocate for other people. I advocated for ice in prison because they stopped giving it to us for a long time. Filed complaints about that and basically talked to the warden face to face and like explained like, “hey, man, this is a basic human right in here that the Supreme Court has already said that we need yet we are not getting that.” And there is a list of things like you don’t have to worry about getting all those other things that were missing. Just give us this. Like just fighting for basic things. It’s like, if you if you have eyes to see, you cannot miss it. That’s why I kind of share some of the some of the things that were happening in prison to me.
Allen
And what about you Maya?
Maya
I think when we, you know, we’re born into the generation that we’re born into. And Ava DuVernay had a quote, I think she was quoting someone else about our mindset…about how we do this together. And the illustration was you inherit this house. We’re all living in this house. And we look at the house and there’s mold over here. There’s some foundations that are just rotting away. There’s broken windows over here and we say, we didn’t break that window. I’m not responsible for the mold over there. But this is the house that we’ve been given. And so it’s our responsibility to fix it as much as we can as best as we can. We have to look at people as people first and foremost. That’s the fundamental skill. Like in basketball, first thing you learn to do other than dribble is shoot. The fundamental skill is you have to be able to see people. We need other people who’ve gone before to help us know. The house is broken like what do we do? [We go to] that mom, grandma, grandpa, like somebody ahead of us. Help me know how to respond to this and say don’t panic baby I know this looks bad, but we can fix this. I had people to show me this is something we can do to help this system correct. And then also just being in relationship, that’s the majority of the work is not being afraid to be in a relationship with the people who have been stepped on. I had a measure of privilege. And I tried to use that to say hey, I’m no better than you. We’re both humans, you deserve to be treated like a human. I’m just saying everybody have basic humanity. Then your work ethic, or your gifts can kind of, you know take you where it goes but basic humanity cannot be a negotiable. So that’s kind of where I came in of like, I didn’t know this was happening. We need to do something because we can do something with this house that we inherited.
Allen
Can you talk about what you how your faith has motivated and played into [your work]?
Jonathan
Yeah, as you look into the Bible, you won’t find Superman in the Bible. You won’t find Batman. You won’t find people that were flawless outside of Jesus. Like everybody [had flaws]. Moses was a murderer. You could just pick anybody a character in the Bible any person in the Bible and see something. And what that does is it lets you know you’re not alone in your flaws and your weaknesses. And what that does, they call us to remember when we see other people that are struggling that are going through things. It calls us to look at them like, “hey, I have my weaknesses. We all need to have compassion on each other. We all need to help each other.” It calls us to remember those people that are less fortunate than we are.. We are supposed to want them to have the same things that we would want. We have to remember the vulnerable. Everybody’s got something going on, whether they want to admit it or not, whether it’s in the forefront or not, we all wrestle with things. And we are called to just lean into each other and be a part of community and show up for each other. And be present and speak out against injustice and things that are happening in this world. And me reading through the Bible and seeing that playing that out. Like, that is that is that to me that’s God talking to me through this word, and through other people, through my environment. God is asking you to remember those people and care for those people where you can that are disadvantaged.
Allen
Yeah, Matthew 25 right, if you did for the least of these you did it to me. Maya, can you talk about how your faith plays into this work? Because it’s a huge step going from where you were to where you are now and focused on caring for the least of these and seeking justice.
Jonathan
I was one of the least of these.
Maya
Man, understanding God’s story, right? God has given us a story. And he says there’s a competing story. There’s the story of the world, of the flesh, of devil is like what does that mean? And it’s a way of seeing that is contrary to the kingdom of God. Every day, we have a choice to make. Are we going to believe God’s story, which is the real story or are we going to believe this world story, this empire story? I think we just unfortunately see some of these systems that have been set up in our house right… in our culture. That are so empire and just crush people and dehumanize and devalue and use and manipulate and coerce all based off of [the idea that] I want to preserve myself.
I’m so fortunate to have been able to feel like I’ve been walking with the Lord since around middle school where my faith became my own, before my name became a name. I had that basketball experience with an awareness [that] my identity is “I’m God’s daughter,” and my purpose is not building my name [or] becoming the best, or making the most money. That wasn’t what got me up out of bed. And so when the when the time came where God was like really making it clear to my heart the shift that I needed to make out of that sports entertainment rhythm into a different rhythm that was unknown. [What was it] going to look like when I stepped away from the game in 2019? But I knew it was leading me towards doing more in this kingdom story that I was learning more about, which required me to give some stuff up; some of my comforts, my status or whatever you want to call it in order to be the hands and feet of Jesus and show up and do the hard things and get educated humble myself learn from people. When I was able to speak and use my platform, I could be helpful and accurate in trying to encourage and equip people. It’s about seeing God’s kingdom as clearly and as rightly as I can and then being able to live my life in a way that makes that kingdom a reality as much as I can every day. Which again is going to probably mean some sacrifice right, love costs. Jesus did sacrifice a lot for love, restoration, and redemption. But it was for the joy that was set before Him. Looking ahead to that future joy. We might not see the full benefit of what our lives are going to do but we’re tasting it now in bits. Until that fullness comes into play. But it is the center of all that we do.
Allen
Jonathan your story is unfortunately not unique enough that there are so many people who are subject to this criminal justice system that the statistics are pointing to that, but that you offer hope that there is something in the midst of it to be gained and that there are is a fight to be fought. Maya you gave up a lot. But showed there’s more to life than WNBA of success and living out our faith can mean a lot for us. So I just thank you both so much. Any last words of wisdom for young folks were out there?
Jonathan
I want to say you can’t make this type of story up. [The one I lived.] You can’t do that. And I’ll say this, it can be your darkest moments. Don’t forget that God loves you. And God got your back. All you got to do is seek a relationship with Him. I promise you. You won’t regret it.
Allen
Maya any parting words?
Maya
I would just say when you get discouraged because it can be [discouraging], it’s just it’s part of life. If you look into the dark it’s discouraging, but don’t stay there. There is something. There are people. There are things in motion that are happening that you can plug into. I’d say get plugged in to something because we can’t just look at the dark things by ourselves in our inner room. If we’re going to look at hard stuff you’ve to link arms and be like, we’re going to look at this together and we’re going to do something together. So, my encouragement is always get plugged in to something already happening and stuff will happen out of that. Keep encouraged and keep moving forward. The black church has modeled resilient ways for centuries. It’s not a new thing. There’s a legacy there. Learn and plug into those elders. There are people who have [wisdom], there’s jewels that are still alive that we can have conversations with and glean from. Let us continue to lift up our people who have gone before and make sure they’re appreciated and that we’re receiving what they can pour out. Because those are team members that need to be honored and still have something to offer us. Keep learning.
Allen
Allen
