UrbanFaith interviewed minister, psychotherapist, and author Dr. Sarita Lyons about her new book Church Girl which is a comprehensive look at the blessing, challenges, and opportunities for black women to live fully as believers and part of the body of Christ. UrbanFaith editor Allen Reynolds believes it is one of the most important books of the year. The full interview is above. Excerpts below have been edited for clarity.
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Allen
What inspired you to write this book? You clearly, you’ve spent a lot of time doing counseling work, and then you spent a lot of time doing ministry work. Why did you decide to write a book to help black women and to help black churches to deal with everything that concerns you?
Dr. Lyons
Yeah, great question. So the thing that I’ve been saying when I get that question is, I really did feel God called me to this. I always felt like one day maybe I would write a book, but never did I imagine I would write a book about this or like this. And I’m so honored to be the vessel that God is using to do this work in the earth at this time, because I do think this is a Kairos moment, right? This, it’s a timing, everything that God does has a very specific timing. And so when I think about the lives of black women, Christian women, the church, and then the influence of the world and all the demonic schemes that are being used to get black women to not really grab hold of the faith and put their confidence in Christ. It is a very prophetic work and it’s doing damage on the kingdom of darkness. That’s the intention. I would also say as a black Christian woman, I wrote this book because Toni Morrison once said, if there’s a book you need to read and it doesn’t exist, write it. And so I have written the book that I have needed that I believe so many black women have needed from my time leading black women and teaching black women and ministering the women and counseling at the local church and in private practice. I’m like, wow, this feels like the book we’ve been craving and wanting that just really hasn’t existed. Orthodox in orthodox in terms of teaching and theology, but clear and biblical in orthopraxy, not sacrificing justice, not sacrificing human felt needs, as if they aren’t gospel driven needs and concerns. So it’s, it’s balanced in the ways in which oftentimes books that do, you know, target black women aren’t often balanced in that way. Yeah, or the other concern that many black Christian women have often felt is we’ve read a lot of good theology about biblical womanhood and what it means to be a Christian woman, but we have in some ways felt erased or missing in the message. And the star of every book, the star of every teaching should always be Jesus, but we do know the importance of contextualization. And so church girl seeks to contextualize the experience of black Christian women in a world where we’ve experienced various forms of opposition, where we have our own unique internal struggles and opposition to really living the lives that God has called us all to live. And so I jokingly say a lot of times that you know this isn’t a new gospel this isn’t a new gospel vision for black women that isn’t similar for other cultures, but in many ways I’m writing The Wiz for their Wizard of Oz.
Allen
One of the things that’s come up a lot in our culture is this thing of church hurt, and you spend two chapters kind of dealing and wrestling with it. You start out talking and comparing it to The Color Purple and Sophia and Celie. And can you tell us about what is church hurt? I mean, I know folks in our audience have felt it. It’s causing folks to leave the church, and you give ways to not only address that, but deal with it and invite people to stay in the faith, right, and to stay faithful. Can you talk about the church hurt?
Dr. Lyons
Yeah, so I mean, I think we could come up with a thousand different definitions, but the name speaks for itself. It’s any kind of injury, emotional, physical, spiritual harm that is done in God’s house among people who are professing to be believers. And oftentimes, I mean the four walls of the local church. But I also think that there can be global church hurt, meaning just when different systems of church functioning and ideology like nationalism and patriotism end up becoming more important to churchgoers than just human life, people who bear the Imago Dei, the image of God. That is a global way people can also be hurt. I’m talking about the fact that church hurt is really distressing and particularly like thinking about Harpo and Sophia. I’m making the point that all of us black girls, we have a Harpo, you know what I mean? We have someone that was supposed to love us, someone that was supposed to protect us, someone that said they were committed to us that creates an injury and Sophia had to fight Harpo. That’s her husband. No woman wants to fight, but you definitely don’t want to have to fight in your own house. And I think one of the scars, the wounds of church hurt, is that there is this expectation that people who say they love God and preach grace, mercy, truth, holiness, faithfulness, and living abundant life are not committing sins. This is the last place kind of our psyche ever expects to be hurt. We need to have a paradigm shift about that because the church is not made up of any perfect people, but we serve a perfect God. But there is a standard. We should be held to a higher standard. Church should be safe for black women. Church should be a place where black women are affirmed, not because we’re black women, but because we are image bearers because we are the daughters of the Most High God. Because like here’s the thing; don’t say women are the weaker vessel when it’s helpful for you to maintain authority. But then we’re not the weaker vessel when it’s time to protect, when it’s time to love, or when it’s time to care for well. So the first chapter is really naming the church hurt. And [it doesn’t] matter whether you’re a man, woman, black, white, or other. Everyone has a story of church hurt, some of which I talk about in the book that other people may say “I relate to that. I get that.” I really tried to spend a lot of time though I couldn’t represent every black woman because we’re not a monolith. I really tried to think of what the unique ways are black women experience church hurt that may not show up in other circles for instance being white. Sometimes depending on if you’re in a predominantly white church, or if you’re in a black church that has still prescribed to whiteness being standard of holiness and righteousness and goodness, instead of being able to see that the kingdom of God can hold the diversity of culture. We can all be godly and worship God in the uniqueness of our culture and still be on brand as Christians. And so, I’m thinking about the emotional psychological hurt, the physical hurt, the abuse, the being mis-seen, the being overseeing, even the hurt that we experience when we don’t put more emphasis on the brother sister relationship. How we [in the church] have romanticized and sexualized relationships between men and women so much that we don’t know how to just be faithful siblings in the faith, how both men and women are injured when we do not highlight that aspect of our relationship with one another. One of the other ways that we’re hurt is not just from the perpetrator, but we’re also hurt when there are people who are yes men, and yes women, and there’s cover up, and there’s no accountability, and people who have injured us are never sat down. There’s no discipline, there’s no restorative process. We’re not talking about crucifying people.
Now some people need to get arrested and go to jail for some stuff. But most of the time what people are experiencing is the kind of hurt that if we apply biblical principles to it, I believe that restoration can happen I believe that we can come out stronger. And in many instances, reconciliation can happen so that people don’t all have to leave the church every time they get hurt, because to be hurt is a normal part of the human experience. The only person that’s not going to hurt you in a maladaptive way is God, is your relationship with Jesus Christ.
So, I think that’s part of [it.] Not only are you going to get hurt. But if you tell the truth, you are going to hurt. And one of the things I really wanted to do in the chapters on church hurt was bring balance to it. I think the only place we often ever have a vision to see ourselves is as the victim. We never see ourselves as the victimizer. We never see how we have caused hurt to someone else that someone right now is going through a healing because of something you said or didn’t say or something you did. And so we don’t want to blame because people who are actually victims need to be protected and taken care of and stood up for and they need to be healed. But we also don’t want to pretend that all our hands are always clean. And so that in the same way we need forgiveness from people, we also have someone else needs our repentance. I say in the book that healing from church hurt is a form of spiritual warfare, because the enemy would love for us to get broken and devour one another and be Christian cannibals and tear each other up. But healing, he doesn’t want that because as long as we stay broken, we can walk around with our proverbial church hurt baggage. We can then project the offenses that come through people onto a holy, perfect, righteous, loving God so that He begins to bear the blame and responsibility of the unfortunate sinful acts of the people that represented him. And instead of then having problems with church people, we start having problems with the Groom of the Church. We start having problems with Christ. And so, we don’t walk away from just people sometimes we end up walking away from the faith. And because the devil is intent on robbing God of glory, the breakdown of the integrity of the local church is one way he wants to rob God of glory, get people to distrust God, distrust the community of faith that God says we need for our own sanctification and growth from spiritual immaturity to spiritual maturity. And so [the enemy] wins when we don’t heal. He wins when we stay bitter. He wins when we stay broken. He wins when we stay unreconciled. The way God wins is when we solve problems with biblical prescriptions. When we do things God’s way, from discipline to correction to restoration, we usually get God’s results.
Allen
What advice would you give to young girls and young women, trying to find their places church girls?
Dr. Lyons
I would just say, one of the main ways you just grow as a Christian is you have to grow in biblical community. Meaning [no] isolating yourself. This mantra of “it’s just me and God,” that is a lie from the pit of hell. God doesn’t even exist in isolation. God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit exist in community three persons in one. I think that is one of the ways we protect ourselves from the attacks of the enemy, from false teaching, from all the things that help us drift from the faith is to be in strong biblical community with other brothers and sisters who are like minded. And we also need discipleship. Discipleship is not just finding one super saint to lock arms with, go to Starbucks and get coffee, and do fun things. That can be sometimes a part of it, but really, we need to see every aspect of the church as a means of discipleship. You showing up on Sunday and listening to the preached word, you’re being discipled, you going to women’s ministry or men’s ministry or singles or marriage ministry, you serving in the local church. Those are all contexts where you can receive discipleship. I also think really got to put our hand to the plow. And because in the context of serving the local church, not just being a consumer is when you get to be around other people you get to learn the ways of Christ. You get to give up yourself and give yourself over to the work of the Kingdom. And that’s how you grow.
I would say, not even to say this last because this is definitely like last but definitely not least, prioritize becoming a biblical scholar. And I want to say biblical scholar and theologian, not just like I read my Bible, I did my devo time, but get in the book get in the text. If you’re using devotionals use them as supplements, use them as vitamins. Vitamins are good but they’re not food to live off. Prioritize eating that book, eating that word. Research has shown, even if it was just four days a week. If a person reads the Word of God, four days a week, their life would drastically change. I tell people read something every day, because there are things we do every day like brush our teeth. We wake up, we care for our bodies, we do things every day because it just has become a natural pattern. Eating God’s Word has to become a natural pattern. You grow by the Word of God. If you get into the Book, it will drastically change your life. When God delivered me from African spiritualism and all the ways in which I drifted from the faith and into tarot cards and kyrie shells and astrology and you know just all the altar building and ancestor worship, I had a Bible that looks spanking brand new that I found where God confronted me and convicted me of my idolatry. And all I did every single day, whether I understood it or not, is I read that Book. And I still have that Book, and it is tattered and worn and half of Romans is missing. And the pages are all crinkled up, because it was in the Word of God that God strengthened me and changed my mind and changed my desires. It is getting in the Word of God every single day that will literally revolutionize your life. I would also just say, hey, being a church girl is about being unapologetic. Like you can’t be afraid of cancel culture. You can’t be out here trying to fit in with the world and be on brand as a Christian. We [must] be willing to be soldiers. There are people in other countries who are literally dying for the faith. Surely you can handle not being liked or somebody thinking you a Jesus freak. If being a Jesus freak is the worst thing you could ever be called in this life, I mean, you have surely picked up a jewel to go in your crown. We have to we have to interrogate our lives and say, God saved me from the world. But the intention was to send me back into the world and be a light and be a disciple and be an ambassador. Be a living epistle being read by man because God is making his appeal to the lost world through us. Sometimes you’re the only version of God or church that a lost person will ever met meet on their way to being a believer. And so, if we’re a living epistle, you want to look at your life and say girl, am I telling the story correctly? When people look at me, when they observe my speech, when they observe my walk, when they observe where I go, and what I do, and what I share on my social media and what I even like on social media, because I’ve been tripped out by some of the Christians liking some wild stuff, do I look like I’m a serious Christian? Do I look like I’m a serious Christian? And if not, what are the things that God says you got to die to in order to walk in obedience to [Him]? Like you just can’t live in your kind of way and call yourself a Christian. We shouldn’t just live your kind of way and just call ourselves sliding into heaven. Stealing home base ain’t the way to go. It’s not the way to go. I want to I want us to get our weight up biblically, but I’m challenging us like stop playing church. Stop being on the sidelines stop just attending on Sunday and living wild and reckless and sleeping around and smoking blunts and you ain’t got glaucoma and talking crazy and sharing dumb silly memes and laughing at the church, laughing at all kinds of foolishness. Because what you laugh at you normalize. Check the music you listen to, what are you feeding yourself? Because here’s the thing, whatever you feed will grow and whatever you starve will die. How are you feeding your flesh? And how are you starving your spirit? The goal isn’t to starve the spirit; make it weak make it impotent. [It’s] to nourish and feed the spirit man so that that can be the giant. [Then] the flesh can be the little person, but we are functioning opposite of that. I see too many of my sisters just out here, really wanting to figure out how to be a carnal Christian. And that’s corny. Being a carnal Christian is corny. We need to stop it. Be unapologetic, be bold, be courageous the Bible says the righteous are bold as a line. God wants to use you sis. And the enemy is sitting back laughing at us as he eats up our lives with us looking like we serve him and not serve God. It’s time to come up and that’s what Church Girl is doing. Get this gospel vision for your identity for your purpose, for your healing, for your rest, for your ability to live unapologetic in Babylon, so you can flourish and stop drifting away from the faith. Or my last chapter, go after the gone girl, the missing black woman from the church and help guide her home like God guided me home when I was the prodigal daughter out in the world. The book isn’t meant to beat up on you, but it is a clarion call that says where’s the remnant? Where’s the remnant? Stand up! Stand up to the glory of God.
The full interview is above. Excerpts from the interview are below. Dr. Wilkes book Plenty Good Room is available for purchase here.
Allen
We have the Reverend Dr. Andrew Wilkes talking about his book today Plenty Good Room. He has written for us in the past many years ago as an intern, but now continuing his work as a political scientist, social thinker, and a pastor.
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
It’s good to see you, Allen, a joy to be in conversation, deep appreciation for Urban Faith and of course for the wider work beginning in the 70s of knowing Black folk need Black authored materials for Christian Education that are culturally relevant that you and I has been doing all down through the years.
Allen
Why did you feel like you wanted to write this and get your thoughts out in Plenty Good Room?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Yeah, really appreciate the question. Plenty Good Room, as I note in the preface, is part argument, part appeal, part prayer. And it’s something that I’ve been pulling together for the last 10 years or so, went through research and other means that I noted that so much of our approach to economics is still grounded on a mental model, a planning model of scarcity and austerity, rather than a beginning operating assumption of sufficiency and abundance. And so the prayer, the appeal, the argument is that if we’re in a moment where, let’s take America for instance, where we have gross domestic product of some $26 trillion, whatever we have, it’s not scarcity and it’s not austerity. We’re in a place where we have to think through the public choices and the public priorities that we make. And so Plenty Good Room is trying to argue that public choices and public policy is not simply a technical consideration for experts, but it’s rather an encompassing matter for the full body of Christ, for everybody that considers themselves to be a neighbor, or somehow enmeshed exactly as you named in this work of trying to create a better world.
Allen
A lot of folks may have heard of socialism. We certainly have black Christians. Can you define black Christian socialism for us?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Yeah, so I’d like to define it by image, because I think that’s helpful. Black folk play spades and when you play spades, you have a hand. And we tend to think that the hand that somebody plays with and wins depends on the skill or the savvy of the person who’s playing their particular hand. But what really is the meat and potatoes and often the most influential factor is the distribution of cars that one has in their hand. Do you have the Joker? Do you have the deuce of diamonds or the deuce of spades depending on how you play? I know black folk plays spades differently in different regions, but the question of distribution is co-equal to in some cases more important than the individual skill of the spades player. And you may have perhaps heard those who are listening may have perhaps heard folks say, I can’t even do nothing with this hand right here. And so, I talk about spades as a way to get the question of distribution and black person socialism on the table, because too often the question of what it means to be a justice-oriented Christian devolves into a kind of budget shaming or financial scolding of how folks save, invest, spend or how they don’t. Rather than having a question about how are we co-creating and distributing the resources in a context where we affirm that the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. And so, in a nutshell, black Christian socialism is about trying to pay more attention to the pre distribution and the redistribution of resources so that all of God’s children can flourish and help make decisions about stuff they help create.
Allen
I love that image. And one of the things that you lift in the pre-distribution but also in thinking about what has happened before us as you spend some time with history and I think it’s important for people to see that this is not new stuff, right. The ideas are rooted in our traditions.
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Very much so.
Allen
Can you talk about some of that history, some of those figures you lift up, you know, Dr King and bell hooks and, and, you know, can you talk about some of why that history is important and where the historical precedence is for something like this, this black Christian socialism?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Absolutely. You know, in 1896 in the middle of trying to figure out how industrial capitalism and in a moment before public health codes and building codes whereas modernized as they are now, you have a Reverend Dee Ransom, who’s pastoring a church in Chicago, no, no less in the institutional and me church later to become an AME bishop, who writes in an 1896 edition of the AME church review about Christians and socialism. You have a black bishop in the Episcopal church, the door Holly, who in that same issue. Again, this is, you know, 140 years or so, prior to our current moment addressing the same and they talk about the values and the virtues of the carpenter from Galilee and how questions of socialism and Christianity need to be on the table as we think about what it means to express a kind of discipleship, civic responsibility, agitation for justice that can fully serve black people and so in terms of the history. I point out the fact that it’s not just individual outlier clergy, but this is a denominational church press, which is talking about black churches and socialism. And on just a plain level. I think it’s important to open up the continuum of optionality for Christians that there is no inherent marriage and in fact I’d argue there’s some a good deal of antagonism between Christians and Christianity as a religious tradition and capitalism. Even if one doesn’t buy that premise, certainly Christians should be able to choose the political economy that they feel best matches their vision of what Christ’s message in ministry is all about. And what I’m simply saying is that I think we need to see that the radical stream of black social Christianity has always existed and has turned towards things like mutual aid and socialism to express what it looks like to turn the world upside down.
Allen
You can’t read Acts right you can’t read Acts 2 and Acts 4 and not see this. Can you talk about some of those biblical foundations, especially for people who may not be as familiar or may have not read those scriptures? Can you talk about how that’s rooted in our faith and rooted in scripture?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Absolutely. Beautiful question. You know I think about a number of places we see Jesus and Luke 4 talking about how the Spirit of Lord is upon me to preach good news to the poor to bind up the broken hearted to set the captives free announce the acceptable year of the Lord’s favor. But we often miss Luke chapter one, Mary’s Magnificent where she talks about the humble being exalted, the mighty pulled down from their thrones, the rich being sent away empty and the hungry being filled with with good things, whatever that correlates to it certainly doesn’t correlate to Silicon Valley Wall Street dominated capitalism. When we look at the vision of what I think we can interpret our current moment not saying this was the concern of the office but in terms of our current moment acts to and for talks about a fellowship dedicated to the teaching of the Apostles and folks sharing all things in common. And so we have this cooperative pooling together of resources that we see as contemporary as black churches creating credit units to get away from predatory finance systems that wouldn’t give fair loans or gave predatory loans to black people like folks that wait, wait, wait, we can pull our resources together. We can have membership in a financial entity where we can resist white supremacist notions of credit worthiness and instead do what the best of church traditions have done as canonizing scripture, but also as practice by our people down through the years and so I think credit unions are one way to live into that and so we can do and for tradition. But there’s also a sense of wanting to have a comprehensive vision of economic justice and when I think of a passage like James five, which is a sim essentially a manifesto against wage theft. And so this is about how farmers farm workers had wages withheld from this. This is James words that my from from the rich and the text says that the wages cried out and that the Lord of Hosts, her. This is a kind of a caring through of that kind of Exodus 3 of God hearing the cries of folks who experienced economic oppression, and the church men called to do something about that. In a nutshell, Allen, what I am suggesting is that a model of what some economists and sociologists have called solidarity economics is a way to try to translate this beloved community, this co creating tradition that we see in the scriptures. This way we can translate that into how we do public finance, how we do nonprofit work, how we do community development, how the church engages with labor unions, and how we can think beyond the two party system in America because multi party democracy is a common thing for churches and most of God’s creation, it ought to be something that we do here in the States as well.
Allen
How can people join into these conversations or do some things on the ground to make this implemented because it is something that’s actually possible now that’s being done now?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Absolutely. So, a few things. I mean, on the policy front, we’ve talked a bit about calling for supporting already existing credit unions with respect to finance community land trust with respect to housing. Solid wealth funds that are democratically controlled with respect to economic development models and rural metropolitan suburban and exurban areas, calling for the use of taxation policies that prioritizes families that are rather that prioritizes working families rather than tax abatement strategies in perpetuity to build stadiums that project jobs which I’ve never quite created at the volume and at the pay rates that the models say will take places. I think there’s a way to participate specifically and land use zoning and town planning conversation that says how can we use the fiscal leverage that the public sector has in a way to generate full employment in our communities and a way to generate more catalytic investment from nonprofits from small businesses from arts and cultural institutions which are often unheralded economic drivers in terms of the demand that they bring to cities through concerts through forum through symposium. Anytime you talk about stimulating consumer demand and bringing people to an area that’s an economic impact that should be seen as such and not explained away because it may not be, you know, a cash cow in the way that say a high profit yield tech industry is. So, my point in saying that last piece and talking about equitable forms and models of economic development and getting people involved, not just in voting, but in planning conversations and city council meetings, calling for things like public banks. That is the way on the policy front that I think we can start to activate and make more actionable what may feel like a big conversation. The other piece that I’d say and I think there’s a theological piece to this explicitly that I want to name. I think it’s important to add more detail to the vision of what often goes by beloved community but so many things have been described as beloved community or social justice. And when you scratch below the surface, it’s the vision of economic empowerment for those who are already well connected, well degreed, well spoken, and those whose new divergence or whose multi-lingual gifts or who’s not quite being at the center of social status and power isn’t quite as central to those visions. I think it’s important for us to recognize that gap and then be to draw from some of our most famous and heralded figures. Martin Luther King Junior is and was known by his colleagues as a Democratic socialist to draw on late Reverend Dr. Katie Geneva Cannon, who in womanism and the soul of community. It’s drawing on the work of Oliver Cox to make a very similar point. The take home being that when we think of what it means to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God, the 21st century expression of that is to work in politics, to work in economics, to work for nonprofits, to work in unmet need round tables that do mutual aid. Right, because it’s not inherently turning towards government. There may be some, not maybe there are ways to distribute resources and a philanthropic and like peer to peer with that can also cause justice. And so what I’m simply saying, Allen, is that, and I know I’m taking the scenic route. Now I’m going to land the plane. The being a systems change sustainably minded Christian who’s concerned about justice, not for an election cycle and not just for the temporary upswing in a business cycle, I think has to mean that that some kind of socialism or cooperative expression is a viable consideration.
Allen
What advice would you give to younger believers about how they can try to live into a more just economy politics world that you have studied and see playing out ?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
The first place that that go is to is to take a comprehensive, consistent and consecrated view of everything you’ve studied, including scripture, but not ending with scripture. And I’m inspired by the pause letter to the church of Philippi where he says, you know, whatsoever is good whatsoever is pleasing whatsoever is lovely whatsoever is just whatsoever is essentially virtuous thing on these things. And so that that call to consistently study to think to research, certainly is a call to dig deeply into the canon of scripture. But I think it’s equally a call to think through what does justice mean in terms of political science what does it mean in terms of the different institutions that shape identity and community that will take you to sociology What does it mean in terms of psychology what does it mean in terms of reading the newspaper consistently and beyond just Fox CNN and MSNBC like once in the local newspaper and neighborhood weekly. So that one can get a sense of how public affairs plays out in your immediate environment as well as meetings and pre existing convenings there’s almost always somebody working on what you care about exactly where you are that you just may not know about and so the call to study the call to see what’s already working and to presume that you want the only one that God has spoken to and stirred up for justice. So, the call to lock arms and join in Federation with folk who are trying to do God’s work of renewal and of making those who are too often put last in our society put first.
This Interview contains conversation about depression and suicide. If you or someone you know is dealing with depression make sure you encourage them to seek professional help. If you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts you can call or text the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline at 988. The Lifeline provides 24-hour, confidential support to anyone in suicidal crisis or emotional distress.
This interview is published in honor of World Mental Health Day. You can find April Simpkins co-authored book with her late daughter Cheslie Kryst, here.
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Maina
Ms. Simpkins, what a powerful book. And so I’m asking this question with all sincerity. I’ve been there before. How are you doing?
April
You know, I take a temperature check on myself. And my mental health on a regular basis. Right now, honestly, out of a 1 to 5 scale, I’m a 4, which is OK. And that’s a good place. Good place. You know, losing a child is just hard. It’s just one of those things I pray that nobody goes through.
Maina
You said that she had high functioning depression. Can you explain that term to me because I think some of people may not understand that term?
April
Sure, I think most people are familiar with the term major depressive disorder. And we see that it will take over. That is when you see someone really struggling. They’re fatigued. They’re not eating. It shows in their facial expression. There are so many outwards visual appearances to having major depressive disorder. But what Cheslie had was persistent depressive disorder, which is a little different. And persistent depressive disorder shows several of the symptoms of major depressive disorder. But they’re not as critical and they don’t go away. I think for many of us who have gone through a trauma or a change that took you over, that maybe weren’t expecting, you will feel the emotion of depression. It’s the natural emotion. We all feel that.
Maina
We all go through it, yes.
April
Exactly. But that’s the key word is that we go through it. With Cheslie, she lived with it. And was still able to function. And that’s one of the challenges with persistent depressive disorder is you will think to yourself, it’s not that bad. I can still do these things or I’m still able to do these things. And that is where it gets its hybrid name, high functioning depression. I had not heard that term before. And so, I was like, that is really deep. And it made me lean into friends and family members who are in that category. Because we usually see the other side [of depression] and not this side.
Maina
Cheslie’s Foundation. How did that come into play? How’s that going?
April
Cheslie was one of the most giving people ever. Even now, I still hear stories of things she did for others. And it teaches me so much. As a matter of fact, I was just in New York on Friday and talked with a young woman who said that Cheslie had read over one of her essays she had to write for college and gave her a few tips. There are people who I know Cheslie has given them some encouragement on becoming an attorney and words of support and taking the bar exam. When she was in law school and, of course, getting her MBA simultaneously and just involved in a plethora of other organizations, she still found the time to mentor at-risk teens. And would go, I remember vividly, when she skipped a family event, which for us is sacred. But skipped a family event because she wanted to go to the graduation of one of the young women that she mentored. Cheslie gave. And she did it without boasting. She didn’t do it to win awards or anything. She did it because that was the essence of who she was. And this, for me, in my mind, is always going to be Cheslie’s book. And what do I do with what comes of her final work? And that is to allow her legacy to live on and doing that through the spirit of giving. And so, all the net proceeds from the book will go into the foundation. And then we will, in turn, send that money back out to other nonprofits that are focused on the mental health and wellness of youth and teens, our young adults and teens.
Have you ever felt like you didn’t fit in because of God’s call on your life? Tired of the boxes for living faithfully that institutions and society have put on us? Want to be authentic and impactful in the work that you do? Alan Marshall II wrestled with these questions for years and found a solution in releasing his inner weirdo. His new book Unleashing Your Inner Weirdo: A Journey to Authenticity shares the wisdom, research, and encouragement believers need to embrace their unique and God given gifts and callings. UrbanFaith sat down with Alan to talk about his book and his journey. The full interview is above, excerpts from the interview are below. More about the book is below.
Allen:
My first question for you is given that you have all this experience in ministry and in business and you know, civic affairs, what made you want to write this book? What inspired you to write “Unleashing Your Inner Weirdo?”
Alan
I think the fact that I’m weird. The fact that I end up being in my head an anomaly but then realizing that other people may be just as weird as me. To think about a person who came from being a Jehovah’s Witness to travel in the world and preach the Gospel to a person who had no political or business experience ending up jumping into a hundred-million-dollar deal all because I heard from the Lord and just decided to run with what he was giving me. To do that is weird in this day. But I believe that each and every person has their gifts and their talents. That they have something about them that makes them special, something that makes them unique. And oftentimes what I find when I’m consulting with people is that they hide their weirdness. They hide some of their best abilities because they don’t know how others are going to receive them. And so, this book is about unleashing your inner weirdo coming out and hearing the voice of God and running with what he’s giving you.
Allen
You contend that believers should have a different motivation a different why. Can you talk a little bit about what that why is and why it’s important?
Alan
First we go to scripture right. The Bible says that that [Jesus] is the vine, and we are the branch and apart from him we can do nothing right in him. In Him we move and have our being. So Jesus is not the source of our why, your why is going to be perverted. It’s just how it works. Your why is going to have mission creep in it. You’re going to end up going into something that you should have probably never really [done]. But when Jesus is the center of your why he then informs what you need to do how you need to move. I was sitting with my publicist the other day and we were eating lunch, and she says like tell me a little bit about yourself like what is your niche? What sets you apart? What causes you to do stuff that like I just don’t see other people doing? And I simply said to her I hear from the Lord, and I do it. That’s it. I understand that my why is to make impact throughout this next generation throughout this generation of Millennials and Gen Z. That is my why right. And it motivates me to travel and speak and invest my time in writing books and different things like that. That is my why. And when I ask the Lord how to do it, he gives me plans to put in motion and to fulfill. You know I think of some of the greats and say I’m actually really simple. I hear from the Lord, and I do what he’s telling me to do.
Allen
What wisdom or what advice would you give to young leaders you know in whatever sphere they might be in people who are considering ministry or people who are considering business what advice would you give on how to be an authentic leader for folks who are coming up after you?
Alan
I would say the first thing I would say is one figure out who you are and a lot of times you know that’s said and it doesn’t seem that simple but there are ways that you can do that. Get mentorship that is that is willing to be transparent open and honest with you if they can do that that’s helpful. The second thing I would say is go take personality tests. Personality tests have helped me greatly especially like the disc assessment, some strength finders, personality attachment, the enneagram, all those things will help you figure out who you are but they also help you figure out who others are. Sometimes there’s just a disconnect in communication. So I would say if you want to learn to lead in authenticity and work in authenticity, simply take the time to figure out who you are and how to communicate that to others. I think that that’s not only sound advice it’s important advice because mentorship is one of the things that I feel like the generation coming after us and our generation really needed and didn’t get a lot of. But making those connections can make a huge difference.
In the changing world of ministry and leadership, the demand for authentic leaders has never been more vital. “Unleashing Your Inner Weirdo: A Journey to Authenticity” is a book intentionally designed to empower ministry professionals and Christian leaders with the tools and insights to lead with authenticity. This book is comprised of seven chapters that navigate its audience toward understanding and embracing their unique God-given attributes and developing an impactful and authentic leadership style.
SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA – JULY 25: View of costume display during The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power SDCC Press Preview Event at Venue 808 on July 25, 2024 in San Diego, California. (Photo by Jerod Harris/Getty Images for Amazon MGM Studios)
The following review is a reflection on Lord of the Rings: Rings of Power Season 2 episodes 1-3 on Prime Video. The opinions shared are those of the writer and do not necessarily reflect those of the publisher. You can stream Rings of Power on Prime Video.
I am a huge Tolkien nerd. After I dipped my toes into the fandom briefly when I was 8 and 12, the Peter Jackson movies came out when I was in high school and it became my thing. I doodled messages using Tolkien’s invented alphabets. I wrote fanfiction. I wore costumes. In recently years, I’ve even given lectures teaching Elvish. I’m in this for the long haul. I deeply love the things that Tolkien deeply loved: trees, languages, and a yearning for that better place of legend somewhere across the water (whether the Western Ocean or the River Jordan). I often wonder if that is why the Rings of Power showrunners are in it. Are they telling us these stories, using Tolkien’s world and characters, because they love them deeply? There is much to discuss in and about Middle-earth. What questions will the showrunners pose? What stories will they tell?
The first three episodes of The Rings of Power’s second season follow returning characters from all the different races of Middle-earth as they explore the dangers and mysteries the previous season left them with.
Morfydd Clark as Galadriel
The Elves:
Three Rings of Power have been made. Now, the Elves face a moral quandary. Do they use a tool that might have been corrupted by the enemy, a tool by which he could possibly corrupt them? Elrond would not. He would let the Elves fall before chancing corruption. Satan has touched so many things in this fallen world. So often we think we see him in something new, but is that true or just our fear talking? When jazz was new, it was “the devil’s own music.” Lightning rods were once thought to be satanic. Lightning bolts were obviously the finger of God’s wrath, and who were we to try to divert that wrath from its intended target? Time has proven that thought to be folly rather than wisdom. Other actions and systems are still up for debate in many circles. Is astrology inherently corrupt and corrupting? Is drinking? Is politics? Paul tells us that all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial.
Elrond, Galadriel, Círdan, and Gil-galad have their only own ancient wisdom to cling to. Hopefully they will truly, vulnerably listen to one another. We see Galadriel come around to embracing the wisdom of Gil-galad, even though it means admitting her own weakness. Hopefully she will also take Elrond’s wisdom to heart when her time comes to face Sauron again. To whom do you turn for wisdom? Our own community of faith includes those in the pew next to us each Sunday, the church universal, and the great cloud of witnesses from all ages past. The powerful tools of Scripture and prayer also help us toward wisdom when used wisely themselves.
Celebrimbor, however, is isolated from the other elves. When Sauron (still disguised as the man Halbrand) arrives, he talks his way back into Celebrimbor’s good graces. Sauron, like our real enemy, is a deceiver. He understands what drives people in their hearts. Rather than choosing to use this empathy for good, Sauron uses it to gain power over others. He plays on Celebrimbor’s vanity and fear. Celebrimbor fears being forgotten, since he is a smith and not a king. The elf fears living forever in the shadow of his grandfather’s artistic legacy. Sauron commiserates with him about how artists are so often forgotten, and promises him the chance to do even greater things. If only Celebrimbor would recognize those “greater things” Sauron guides him toward are only in service to the deceiver himself! Alternatively, we see the kinds of work Celebrimbor does apart from evil guidance. He makes ithildin, a magical metal that is invisible except by the light of the moon. It is mysterious and beautiful, a marvel in its own right. But it will not grant Celebrimbor power, so he dismisses it in lieu of making more rings.
Sophia Nomvete as Disa; Owain Arthur as Prince Durin IV
The Dwarves:
The Dwarves of Khazad-dûm are as stubborn as the stones that surround them. An argument at the end of the previous season has left King Durin III and his son Prince Durin IV estranged. The prince’s wife Disa gives both Durins earfuls trying to persuade them to talk to each other. Even if Prince Durin was less incorrect in the original offence, Disa points out that he is in the wrong now, for letting this argument go on for so long. When King Durin calls his stubbornness strength, she agrees: “I imagine it does take strength to carry a grudge so heavy, to keep your wounded heart so tightly bound it can barely beat.”[1] No wonder Khazad-dûm feels some seismic activity in these early episodes, with Disa dropping so many truth bombs.
The Númenorean Men:
In the 1950s, Tolkien tried his hand at writing a sequel to The Lord of the Rings. Set one hundred years after the War of the Ring, the Men of Gondor faced a rising undercurrent of unrest as some men tired of doing good. There was to be a plot to supplant the king, which the good guys would need to foil. Tolkien said it could have been quite a “thriller,” and therefore “not worth doing.” He knew the kind of story it would have turned out to be and consciously decided not to include it in Middle-earth.[2]
Now we have the Númenorean storyline in The Rings of Power. We see quite the political intrigue as Pharazôn positions himself opposite his cousin, Queen Regent Míriel. Their positions are not clear, though, except that Míriel is a traditionalist while Pharazôn wishes to make a new Númenor. But what traditions is she actually upholding? What traditions does Pharazôn want to subvert? Tolkien’s Númenoreans might have done better to neglect a few traditions, but Míriel is the one shown sympathetically. Pharazôn seems to be able to get Míriel to do what he wants most of the time, so why the subterfuge? Amid this confusion, episode three climaxes with a political stunt Pharazôn set up with his supporters to make Míriel seem weak and duplicitous. I’m sure this season’s story of Númenorean politics will prove to be quite the thriller. And therefore, a story that wasn’t really worth doing.
Charlie Vickers as Annatar; Charles Edwards as Celebrimbor
The Bad Guys:
The first episode’s prologue shows us how Sauron could’ve chosen to do good and to be good. He had that choice every day. This is a good lesson, but I am suspicious of the showrunners. No one watching thinks Sauron will be good. Why did they spend so much time showing us he definitely chose to be evil? Will they waste time exploring this further this season, or was it just to answer a lingering doubt from season one?
Perhaps they linger on this aspect of Sauron’s story to tie it back to Galadriel’s. After all, we shouldn’t apply this lesson only to our enemies. Elrond questions Galadriel along similar lines: she has rejected glorious light before; is there darkness in her heart? Just as any person of great evil could any day decide to do good, any day any good person could decide to do evil.
The show most deeply misses the point of Tolkien by indulging in a morbid fascination with evil. Isildur’s escape from the evils of the “Black Forest” is at least more Tolkienesque, as he is fighting giant spiders (a staple of Middle-earth evil). Outside that sequence, though, there’s so much blood and gore. Black-worm-blob-Sauron is an excellent visualization of evil. So excellent I will have nightmares for days. The camera lingers on a sea monster, a warg, orcs stabbing things and being stabbed; so much time is spent on monsters. Just to marvel at it being wicked cool and gross. Tolkien is about marveling at the simple beauty of nature or the angelic beauty of elves. The first episode has no joy, nor love of beauty in it at all. Except briefly with Nori and the Stranger.
Markella Kavenagh as Nori; Megan Richards as Poppy; Daniel Weyman as The Stranger
The Stranger:
One reason Tolkien did not pursue publication of The Silmarillion in his lifetime was that there were no hobbits. Hobbits are the audience-insert characters, the ones that keep the story grounded. The Silmarillion has been called the “Old Testament” of Middle-earth. For indeed, without hobbits—lo!—Tolkien’s prose abounds with thees and thous, begetting and forswearing, and everything has the cadence of King James’ English. He soars into the high beauty of the elves, neglecting his equal love for natural landscapes and plain simple country-folk. Likewise, the show gets wound up in its own drama, mystery, and exploration of evil, until it remembers the Harfoots (Harfeet?) and the Stranger they have befriended.
The Stranger struggles to remember or figure out who he is and what he is here for. He misses a home he can’t remember, one that’s “just beyond the sunset,”[3] and so do we all who sojourn here, strangers in this land when our citizenship in heaven. He does not remember his name, but he knows he already has one. That name is already part of him, even if he has forgotten it. He will not let even Nori give him something so powerful as a name. He will wait and search for that power within himself (he knows it’s there somewhere!), rather than let someone else override it. Nori’s solution to the problem is simple, easy, and good-natured; she wants to help her friend. But if the Stranger accepted Nori’s name for him, it would be a rejection of his true potential. Friends can indeed help us remember who we are when we forget, but don’t let even your friends decide who you are for you, when neither of you know for sure.
Final thought:
Providence is a great theme in The Lord of the Rings, but will it be in this show? Sauron just happens to meet a kind old man. Then he just happens to meet Galadriel. Círdan just happens to glimpse the Rings because a wave just happens to startle him. Will we see that these “coincidences” were the providential work of the Valar, those angelic servants of Ilúvatar All-Father? Will we see how the millennia-long arc of Elven history bends toward justice?
[1] Rings of Power, episode 2.2, “Where the Stars are Strange.”
[2] J.R.R. Tolkien, “The New Shadow,” ch. 16 of The Peoples of Middle-earth. The History of Middle-earth, vol. 12. Christopher Tolkien, ed.
[3] Rings of Power, episode 2.3, “The Eagle and the Sceptre.”
UrbanFaith sat down to interview Aaron Cole, a Christian rapper and singer who started out as a teenager and is now claiming his place as an up and coming star. His new album Sorry I Changed (Again) was just released and he wonderfully balances relevance with authenticity all while being faithful. More about Aaron is below.
25 year-old Aaron Cole started rapping when he was just three years old. Since then, he’s garnered the coveted Dove Award for New Artist of the Year, held 3 #1 singles on the Billboard Christian HOT AC/CHR chart and has had multiple sync uses including promos for ESPN and Fox Sports. His songs have also been featured in the Netflix original series, “On My Block” among other prominent sync placements.
Named “One of 5 Top Gospel Artists to Watch” by Essence Magazine, Cole’s musical journey included releasing six independent projects prior to his signing with Gotee Records. The Bristol, VA, native was then introduced to multi-GRAMMY-award-winning producer and artist TobyMac, who has been working with him ever since.
“Aaron Cole is where it’s going, He’s a natural,” TobyMac said. “He wakes up and breathes songs that are culturally relevant, but ever aware of the spiritual. He just gets it. He has a deep love for God and a love for people that organically works its way into the lyric. The Lord has blessed him with a deep well of talent, yet he grinds like he’s ungifted. That’s a rare combination that I will lock arms with anytime, anywhere.”
Aaron released his third major-release album called Sorry, I Changed earlier this year, which includes the featured singles “SBTN (feat. Kirk Franklin),” “Proof,” “I Love It,” “Tables Turned,” and “Have Your Way.” The Deluxe edition Sorry, I Changed (Again) was just released last month. The single “Have Your Way” is out at gospel radio and samples the Carl Thomas R&B hit “I Wish.” His album encompasses the versatility he’s known for, both rapping and singing, reflecting on major changes and challenges he’s come through faith, including dealing with the loss of loved ones, family matters, getting married, and the importance of how to navigate changes to embrace continued personal growth.
Allen
Allen
Have you ever felt like you didn’t fit in because of God’s call on your life? Tired of the boxes for living faithfully that institutions and society have put on us? Want to be authentic and impactful in the work that you do? 
In the changing world of ministry and leadership, the demand for authentic leaders has never been more vital. “
25 year-old Aaron Cole started rapping when he was just three years old. Since then, he’s garnered the coveted Dove Award for New Artist of the Year, held 3 #1 singles on the Billboard Christian HOT AC/CHR chart and has had multiple sync uses including promos for ESPN and Fox Sports. His songs have also been featured in the Netflix original series, “On My Block” among other prominent sync placements.