These are excerpts from an interview transcribed and edited for clarity and length from Jamaal Bernard’s Offscript Podcast submitted by UF contributor Maina Mwaura. Jamaal interviews acclaimed actor Courtney B. Vance about his new audible reading of W.E.B. Du Bois: Biography of a Race, 1868-1919 by David Levering-Lewis now available on audible. The full interview can be watched or listened to anywhere you find podcasts.
Jamaal Bernard
I’m so excited I’m here. A new episode of Offscript with a special guest, a friend, a friend for years. You see me grow up and Courtney B. Vance. You’re doing a piece for an amazing man, a man who is such a great individual, great inspiration, a great legacy within the community of people of color. And I love this because we have the young individuals, the further I think we get away from certain time points and period in history, the least amount of effect it has on generations, right? And what you’re doing here with this project is an amazing, amazing thing. So thank you so much for that, for my kids’ kids. Tell me a little bit about this project. –
Courtney B. Vance
You know, you talk about what we, you know, the further away you get from, you know, I’m a history buff, I love big biographies. And I didn’t know anything about W.E.B. Du Bois. If you go in black people’s homes, you know, post 1963, up to, you know, 2000 or so, they have a picture of Jesus and a picture of MLK on the wall. Prior to ’63, that was Jesus and W.E.B. Du Bois. That’s how big he was. And I didn’t know that. [It’s amazing] how quickly and how easily we forget and erase people. When he died in Ghana, the president of Ghana gave him a state funeral, on the same day that MLK was delivering his I’ve a Dream speech. The [most prominent] man pre MLK was leaving and MLK was ascending. And they were both at [living] at the same time. They were leaving and ascending at the same time. And for us not to know who he was, that’s how things can repeat. That’s how we lose a sense of who we are, because we don’t continually revisit. We say never forget. And in the information age, we say that and it’s scary. And then that’s why I love history.
Jamaal Bernard
So, [you read] this story, and then putting it on audible, genius idea, right? God used you, inspired you to act. How does your faith, you know, help you navigate the arena? Because you’re an actor, right? You are on big screen, you’re on the stage, now you’re doing audio books and whatnot, and this probably won’t be your last audio book. So how does your faith help you navigate this arena?
Courtney B. Vance
It’s all about my faith. It’s all about our faith. That allows me to stay calm when I don’t know what’s next or what’s happening, or is this the right choice to make? Is this the right timing? Is the timing right to actually ask, can we go in this direction? I don’t panic. As when the disciples were rowing across the, and they were on the one side, and Jesus said, you know, I’ll see you on the other side. He just didn’t tell them that they were gonna go into the storm. But if he says, I’ll see you on the other side, you know that despite the storm, you’re gonna get to the other side. Storms of life happen to all of us. We’re in a storm now, but we will get to the other side of it. Just like, and that’s why I read biographies to actually see how people dealt with the storms in their lives.
Jamaal Bernard
I was gonna ask, can you correlate your experience with something that you, with this project, with W.E.B. Du Bois, and the storm that he’s going through?
Courtney B. Vance
The storm he went through was…he was born a generation removed from slavery. And people at the time were, white and black, were figuring out, is it W.E.B. Du Bois’ way, or is it Booker T. Washington’s way? You know, which is the agrarian, do the trades, and it’s a combination. But white folks at that time were, scared. ‘Cause bottom line, it’s all about the vote. We don’t wanna educate them too much so that they start to come into our areas and impact our lives in terms of making sure that white folks always have what they need, and that they don’t have to answer to black people. So, [they] don’t want them to be engaged, but [they] don’t want to seem like we’re trying to keep them down. So, they were, as our director Christina said, they were figuring it out as they went along. The country was trying to figure out what direction it’s going. It’s fresh out of the Civil War, [W.E.B.] came into his own, into college. [It’s around] 1885, that was a generation removed from the Civil War. So, [white Americans are] trying to get there, but are [they] really helping black people? Are you just helping yourself? Are you only giving money, these rich philanthropists to causes that keep black people down? Or are you giving them to causes that help bring black folks into the mainstream? That was the dilemma.
Tamika Mallory was raised in activism as her parents worked with Rev. Al Sharpton’s National Action Network. She was also raised in the church, taking seriously the role that her faith community played in advocating for justice and shaping people’s lives. She is known for her activism for black women in a world where civil rights are being threatened more every day. Her memoir: I Lived to Tell The Story shares her story in a moment where her story is more important than ever. UrbanFaith contributor Maina Mwaura sat down with Tamika to talk about her memoir and what she sees in the world today.
Ms. Julieanna Richardson went from broadcast and television executive to the founder of an organization dedicated to preserving Black History. She now runs one of the largest organizations dedicated to the location and preservation of African American historical archives, stories, and history: The History Makers. UrbanFaith contributor Maina Mwaura sat down with her to learn about the Historymakers and get her insight on our world and history today.
A photo of the many hands involved in the making of Jack Daniel’s Whiskey, including George Green, the son of Uncle Nearest, circa 1904. (Photo provided/Newfields)
The following interview is with Fawn Weaver, Founder of Uncle Nearest and UrbanFaith Contributor Maina Mwaura, about her new book Love & Whiskey. The views expressed here are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect those of UrbanFaith.
Maina: Why did you decide to write the book?
Fawn: The book is the reason I came to Lynchburg, Tennessee, in the first place. The story of Nearest Green and Jack Daniel is one of the greatest American stories the world needs to know, and it’s my great honor to have been able to tell it.
Maina: What did you learn that you didn’t already know about Nearest Green?
Fawn: When I first encountered this story, like most people, I knew absolutely nothing about Nearest Green. However, through my research, I’ve since discovered that he is the world’s first known African American master distiller, the teacher and mentor of Jack Daniel, and the only known master distiller for Jack Daniel Distillery No. 7.
Maina: What was the bond between Nearest Green and Jack Daniel?
Fawn: Jack was a young, white orphan who was mentored by and grew up learning from Nearest Green. When Jack was old enough to own his own business, he asked his mentor to be his first master distiller. I believe this to be one of the earliest examples of business allyship in America, a bond that continued for generations between the descendants of Nearest and Jack. Genuine backstories drive the American whiskey business, and it’s always about heritage.
Maina: Why do you think Uncle Nearest has resonated with its customers?
Fawn: Uncle Nearest was the first truly inclusive bourbon brand. Until our debut in 2017, bourbon marketing typically focused on one or two demographic groups. But we decided to tap into the ties that bind all humans: love, honor, and respect. When you look at our marketing and hear our team speak about our brand, those three words come up repeatedly. It turns out that if you bring together a marketing team that represents the full diversity of America and then market to all of America, it resonates. And, of course, we have the best story the bourbon world has ever known.
Maina: What one thing do you think will surprise readers about the book?
Fawn: Readers may be surprised by how openly I share about building Uncle Nearest and how my background and upbringing equipped me to face the onslaught of challenges in this industry. I’m very transparent about what it has taken to become who I am today and to build the company I’m known for now.
Maina: How did the book-writing process make you a better leader?
Fawn: I can’t say the book-writing process made me a better leader. What has made me a better leader is learning what my team needs and leaning into that as much as possible. However, the book has greatly inspired our team overall and serves as a constant reminder of our “why” today and moving forward.
Maina: What was Nearest Green’s spiritual background?
Fawn: We don’t know for certain. That said, his children and grandchildren attended Christian churches, so if they inherited their faith from Nearest, we can assume he was also Christian.
Maina: Did you say everything you wanted to in the book?
Fawn: Yes, I put everything into Love & Whiskey, so nothing remains untold. Anything new that I’ve learned since its publication will be included in an extended paperback version down the road.
Fawn Weaver 2021 – Photo Credit – Eric Ryan Anderson
Man, one of my favorite authors, I mean, I just want to be blunt with you. Every time I see you on Meet the Press, Eddie, I’m always like, he is dead on about something. I don’t know where it comes from. So where were you when you said to yourself, “Self, I need to write a book [like] We Are The Leaders that We’ve been Looking For?”
Dr. Glaude
You know, this book is based on a set of lectures I delivered like in 2011. And I was so angry at that moment. Everybody was excited about the Obama presidency. And I was angry in some ways, doc, that people were reading Obama’s presidency as the fulfillment of the black freedom struggle. That that’s what the object of all that sacrifice was for, was to get a black man in the White House. And I just thought, that’s not true. What happened to love, what happened to justice, what happened to the moral dimension of the movement? I wanted to think through that. I wanted to figure out what were we relinquishing, what were we giving up in that moment. And then fast forward, all these years later, I returned to those lectures. And I returned to them because in some ways I had lost my footing. I was trying to figure things out because COVID had disrupted so much, I had lost two partners. I felt like I was unmoored, untethered as it were. And I knew these lectures were a moment when I was trying to usher in a new way of being for myself, a new way of thinking for myself, a new way of writing for myself. So I wanted to go back to that moment. And lo and behold, I saw what I was trying to do differently. So all of this happened in the summer of 2023. And I got to work. And then I submitted the manuscript to the editor at Harvard University Press and they were like, OMG, let’s get this out as soon as we can.
Maina
What would you say to people who feel the disillusionment of people who are going, “I don’t want to be the leader?”
Dr. Glaude
I think part of what I’m trying to argue is that when we outsource our responsibility for the house [of this country], when we say, well, I don’t want to pay the mortgage then we know what’s going to happen. And so we cannot outsource our responsibility for democracy any longer to so called prophets, to so called heroes, to politicians. We have to understand this is where Ella Baker, Miss Baker, is so important that we are our salvation in this instanc. Of course, that that doesn’t disregard one’s faith claims, but it’s what we do.And there’s a somewhat cliche at the heart of the book. And that is that if we are the leaders we’ve been looking for, then we got to become better people. We got to reach for higher forms of excellence. James Baldwin used to put it this way, the messiness of the world is often a reflection of the messiness of our interior lives. So if we don’t begin to do that hard work on becoming better people, then we can’t be the source of significant change. But I also should say this, doing the hard work of becoming a better human being must take place alongside of [and] within our ongoing effort to make a more just world. Because the world as it currently is organized gets in the way of us becoming better people. It’s almost like you’re rewarded to be selfish, you’re rewarded to be greedy, you’re rewarded to be mean spirited, you’re rewarded to be self-regarded. You’re not rewarded if you’re other regarded, if you’re not regarded if you have an I, thou relationship [with others as non-objects], you’re not regarded if you’re committed to justice, if you’re committed to the least of these, you see what I mean? If you’re maladjusted to an unjust world, you’re not rewarded. So we got to do the hard work of self-cultivation in pursuit of a more just world. That’s the heart of the book.
Maina
Which one of these people did you fall in love with the most? You’re taking some of the very, very best and you’re dropping them right in front of us and there are nuggets right in front of us. Which one did you go, “I am more in line with this leader.”
Dr. Glaude
It depends on what age you ask me. So when I was a young kid growing up in Mississippi, Dr. King meant everything. I remember checking out the album, show you how old I am. It was the vinyl of Dr. King’s “I Have a Dream” speech. It was the March on Washington. And I remember stopping it and learning it by memory from Mrs. Mitchell’s eighth grade history class. And Dr. King was so important to how I imagined myself. When I got to Morehouse, you’re baptized in King’s thought. You got the statue of him looking at you. And so King was so important for me at a young age. But then when I got to Morehouse, Malcolm became my guy. And I have my goatee to this day. I will never cut it off as kind of testimony from my first conversion experience, reading The Autobiography of Malcolm X. So here I am excited to be at King’s Alma Mater and my freshman year, this guy walks up to me and said, “You’re like a hand without a thumb. You don’t know who you are.” And he gave me Malcolm X’s autobiography. And I read it that night. And I found the language for my father’s anger. I found the language for how to imagine myself as a man, given the fact that I was so afraid because my father scared me to death. Malcolm became this hero of mine that I cut my political teeth on. And now here I am in my fifties. And Miss Baker is all up in me. It’s a more mature voice, I suppose, but we wouldn’t have a black freedom struggle of the 20th century if it wasn’t for her. And the way in which she has that wonderful line, “A strong people doesn’t need a strong leader.” And I said this once, I was speaking, I think it was in Chicago. I was like, “What happens when you have fans in the pews and a celebrity in the pulpit?” The church is dead. It’s done. I think we’re seeing a lot of that right now. What happens when you outsource your faith journey to someone else? And so part of what I’ve been trying to do is to live Miss Baker’s edict. Because the title of the book comes from her. We are the leaders we have been looking for. She says, “We have to convince people that their salvation is in their hands.” What we choose to do. Not what the preacher chooses to do, not what the politician chooses to do. So not what Malcolm inspired me to do, not what King leads me to do, but what’s coming from inside of my heart in light of the exemplars of excellence and love that inform and shape my own voice as I understand it. And that’s what I’m writing towards in the book.
Maina
You keep talking to me. So last question. Sure. Your spiritual faith journey, did that come into play in this book at all?
Dr. Glaude
It’s at work in all of my texts. To be honest with you, it’s me trying to understand what does it what does it mean to be decent and loving? What does it mean to exemplify the ministry of Jesus without it being overlaid with dogma and an institutional constraint. So when I call for a coalition of the decent, animated by the power of love, that is the exacting power of love. That is that is at the heart of my religious Christian witness, as it were. And there’s a moment in the book near the end where I’m going to invoke Jimmy Baldwin again. He has this extraordinary essay that is published after his after his death is entitled “To Crush A Serpent.” And in this in this essay, he is relentless in his critique of the Fallwells and the moral majority and the like. But he talks about what salvation involves, what it entails. And it’s an echo of an earlier essay, a talk that he gave at Kalamazoo in 1961, entitled “In Search For A Majority.” And he says salvation is found in effect in “the going towards.” Salvation is found in the going towards in some ways. And I want to suggest that salvation is found in the going towards and love is its carriage. So the short answer to the question is, is yes, me trying to figure all of this out, indebted to the Christian tradition, but not limited by it. Those lectures produced an uncommon faith. So the short answer is yes, all my books are or attempts to make sense of this complex journey that I’m making in terms of my faith.
Maina
Dr. Glaude