UrbanFaith Editor Allen Reynolds had the privilege to interview Marlene Harris-Taylor and Myesha Watkins, co-hosts of the Living for We: Keep Ya Head Up Season 2 Podcast. This season confronts how communities are working together to prevent and intervene in the cycles of gun violence that disproportionally impact urban areas. The co-hosts share stories and insights on how churches and people of faith can play a key role in Community Violence Interventions (CVI). You can stream the Living For We podcast wherever you get your podcasts or watch on Youtube and more information on the series is available at Evergreen Podcasts
The excerpts below have been edited for clarity and length. You can watch the full interview above.
Allen
You all talked a lot and gave us what this season is all about focusing on gun violence. Why is it important for us to still be talking about this with so many other things going on in our world?
Myesha
Prevention saves lives. Like when you think about gun violence, one of the things me and Marlene spent a lot of time talking about is like the underlying issues. What are the root causes of violence? Lorenzo, who’s [a] guest on our show, he said he lost his best friend, Caden Coleman, who was 10 years old, to gun violence. And he said, “sometimes we just need a hot meal.” When you think about communities where food insecurity is high, and you’ll have [someone] who is like,
“We get food stamps. My mom had to sell her food stamps in exchange for cash because we don’t have cash. So, I go to the corner store, and I steal peanut butter and jelly. And from that instance, now I’m being impacted by the system because I did a theft. But the root cause was that I was hungry.”
So, when we think about the overall crises that are impacting all our communities, this is all interconnected. And when people put CVI (Community Violence Interventions) to the side to act like it’s not a response to lack of resources, lack of accessibility to stable housing or healthcare or food, then they’re crazy. What we’re trying to do is show them how all of this is connected from several lenses. And I think Marlene can talk about the different lenses that we brought to the couch. Like it was more than just community.
Marlene
Yeah. And I also want to say that there’s sometimes there’s people who say, well, you know, gun violence is down, you know, we look at the overall stats nationally and in our large urban centers, gun violence is down. But that all depends on where you live. Yeah. For people in certain communities and certain zip codes, gun violence is not down in their world. They’re still hearing shootings every night. They’re still losing friends and family to gun violence. And for the people who live in those communities that are not directly impacted, and they think, well, that’s not my problem, because I don’t live in those areas. Gun violence doesn’t care, you know, a bullet doesn’t care who you are. So many times, the violence, the gun violence that is impacting these communities comes to other parts of the city. None of us are safe unless all of us are safe.
Allen
Myesha, any words of wisdom for you on how you saw faith play a role in this work of doing violence prevention?
Myesha
I would say too, and all that Marlene has shared, we have had church on the couch several times, praise God! There’s a national organization called Live Free USA whose main job is to bring faith leaders and violence prevention [organizations] together and not for it to be viewed as separate. And I think churches, especially in black communities, are on every single corner. And we are calling on pastors or calling on people to save not only from the pulpit, but also from the blocks. How do you come out and show that you have a safe space? You have a brave space, and your only goal is not to just preach to eulogy. But how do you speak life as a young people in an accepting way by calling them in to say there are other options and faith is one of them. I just went to the in Cincinnati. I’m here, the national underground railroad freedom center. And even on the posters, at the hardest times as a black person, you see that faith was at the center. When things get hard as they are right now in these moments, especially around gun violence and this administration, black people tend to just cling a little bit closer to God. So hopefully faith leaders are saying, “I know exactly where I need to be.” And even if that’s doing community walks and praying around the radius of my church, that’s enough to show the presence of God. It’s just not in church, but it’s wherever believers are. And so, I’m excited about the work that Live Free USA is doing, the conversations that are happening on this podcast, because it’s going to be some, “amen and thank you Jesus,” but thoughts and prayers by themselves are not enough. But collectively with lived experience and other organizations, thoughts and prayers can go a long way.
Allen
What advice would you give to young people who want to make a difference in their communities, especially around issues like this of breaking that cycle of violence or even making the impact so they can create safe and brave spaces?
Marlene
Well, I’ll start by saying you can begin at whatever age that you are in whatever space that you are in doing the work. Our episode that just dropped today featured young Lorenzo that Myesha brought up earlier, 10 years old. This young man lost his best friend to gun violence, and he decided he wanted to go talk to the mayor. He asked his mentor to go buy him a suit. So, he dressed up in his best suit, went to a community meeting with the mayor, and many other city leaders were and challenged them to say, what are you doing to save people like me? He’s like, will I die? Will I be like my best friend? And I got to tell you, Allen, he riveted the entire room. He ended up with a standing ovation from that speech. And he has been on several media outlets since then. He is already making a difference at 10 years old. So, no matter what age you are, no matter what your circumstances, by speaking out, by getting involved in this work, you can make a difference in your community.
Myesha
There are so many Lorenzo’s in our communities. Like, how do we see those skills and build them up? I think about young people who are able to organize a group of people to do anything that may not be the safest. How do we utilize those same skills as an organizer to do those things well? So young people have skills that they may not be utilizing in the right way as of now, but are skills of amazing leadership. How do we speak to that to say, “you have these great skills. I see you doing something else with them. But what would it look like to give you resources to do something well with them to keep your community safe?” So, I guess my message to young people is you are not the problem. This is a systemic and generational issue. This is caused [by] underinvestment and divestment. This is [caused by] generational trauma that is in our bodies. But what we can control is how we respond to interpersonal conflict. Interpersonal conflict and the urgency to respond to disrespect is at the all-time high. If I tell you, Allen, I don’t like your glasses, you can be so offended that you may want to handle this conflict with a firearm. How do we say it’s not worth it? Your comments aren’t worth it. Your attacks are not worth it. Nothing is worth losing my life. So, to young people who are listening, disrespect should not be the reason that you lose your life or take someone else’s life. There are other options, so many amazing options. And we actually need you. It is necessary for you to live. It’s necessary for you to be here. And it’s very unnecessary for you to risk your life or someone else is because of a conflict. It’s very preventable. And I know it sounds simple because when I was your age, I probably wouldn’t let nobody talk to me crazy. But I lived a little bit more and I want you to live. We’re here for you. I hope our podcast serve as a listening ear and a space of dialogue. But yeah, just live a little bit more so you can see that some of the decisions and choices that you are making is not worth it because baby, listen, if Instagram was around when I was younger, I probably would be in trouble. I’m glad that I’m here to tell the story. So, stay safe. We want you to be alive and free.
Marlene
Myesha, I’m so glad you mentioned Instagram because one of the things that we’ve learned. I’ve learned is so many times people get into beef on Instagram that then comes out into life. And then, something that started as this small beef on Instagram becomes somebody losing their life as a result of it. Social media is driving a lot of this, but she’s right. The systemic things behind it are really what’s driving the gun violence in our communities. And we need to know that that it’s not our fault that our communities have been under this strain of underinvestment that is there’s been this prison from school to prison pipeline that has taken so many men out of our communities. We heard over and over again from the young men who are guests on the show, that they didn’t have a father, that they were raised by their mother. And they felt this real pressure at a young age like 10, 11, 12, to help their family to survive. And many times that’s why they picked up the gun. They were just trying to survive and help their family survive. And that’s a theme we hear over and over on the program. People need to know there’s not their fault that they’re in that situation.
Tamika Mallory was raised in activism as her parents worked with Rev. Al Sharpton’s National Action Network. She was also raised in the church, taking seriously the role that her faith community played in advocating for justice and shaping people’s lives. She is known for her activism for black women in a world where civil rights are being threatened more every day. Her memoir: I Lived to Tell The Story shares her story in a moment where her story is more important than ever. UrbanFaith contributor Maina Mwaura sat down with Tamika to talk about her memoir and what she sees in the world today.
Republished with permission from Ideastream Public Media.
Cleveland, OH – Ideastream Public Media announces the release of Living For We, Season 2: Keep Ya Head Up, in collaboration with Evergreen Podcasts. This video podcast, which premiered February 11th, 2025, is part of Connecting the Dots between Race and Health, an ongoing initiative for Director of Engaged Journalism Marlene Harris-Taylor and the larger team at Ideastream. “While season one focused on livability for Black women in Cleveland, season two explores the most pressing mental health epidemic facing the country: gun violence.”
“It’s the number one cause of death for young people,” says Marlene Harris-Taylor, executive producer and co-host on the project. “We hope to bring this topic to the forefront of community conversations and change the current dynamic.”
This season introduces a new co-host: Myesha Watkins, director of the Cleveland Peacemakers. Her organization is dedicated to providing resources to victims of gun violence, and to preventing cycles of retaliation that often arise in the wake of a shooting.
“Her expertise is a welcome addition to the show,” states Mark Rosenberger, Chief Content Officer at Ideastream Public Media. “She understands the root causes of gun violence, she knows what needs to be done to interrupt these patterns, and which community leaders are already in the trenches, doing the work.”
With a video component of the podcast, available for free on YouTube, audiences can expect to hear and see from those leaders this season. They’ll also be confronted with compelling stories from those most affected by gun violence—including young perpetrators.
“Every bullet fired creates two victims: the person in front of the gun, and the one pulling the trigger,” Harris-Taylor explains. When it comes to street violence, most shooters are hurt by guns long before they ever use one. Breaking the cycle means understanding what led them to pick up a weapon in the first place. As one guest on the podcast notes, “There’s always a story behind it. It’s never for fun.”
This season aims to be a resource for the community. The team has assembled a landing page for anyone in need of resources, whether they’re a victim of gun violence, worried for a family member, looking to escape their situation, or even re-entering civilian life after time away.
Harris-Taylor and Watkins understand that the solutions have been in place for a long time. They just need funding and support to be more widely effective. “That’s why we also hope to reach leaders in positions of power,” Harris-Taylor says. “To forward the conversation.”
Episode 4 Something Greater Than Me addresses how the church can play a role specifically in breaking the cycle.
In this episode we go to church, with three men who were once entangled in street hustle culture and ended up behind bars. Now they have created a ministry that’s reaches out to those with misguided ideas of manhood. Stanley Frankfurt tells an incredible story about how he was backed into a corner, it was either him or me, but he believes divine intervention kept him from facing a murder charge. He was introduced to Jesus in prison and he is one of the founders of Canton, Ohio-based Young Christian Professionals. The community organization was started by a group of men when they were still incarcerated. It’s now helping others reintegrate into life on the other side of the walls. We also talk to Bobby Johnson who provided a Godly example for Stanley and our third guest Deshawn Johnson in prison. Bobby experienced some harsh realities as a child but at 8 years old he was told there was something greater inside of him. It took going to prison before he could fully embrace his calling to mentor and minister to other men. Deshawn Johnson also joins us and shares how he is thriving as a business owner. He opened The Experience Barber and Beauty Shop in Akron as a place where men can relax and share in a safe environment. He also provides jobs for formerly incarcerated men. The Young Christian Professionals mentoring program is now available in five different prisons across Ohio.
Living For We, Season 2: Keep Ya Head Up is part of the Connecting the Dots between Race and Health Podcast: Living For We series. Living For We is made possible by generous support from the Dr. Donald J. Goodman and Ruth Weber Goodman Philanthropic Fund of the Cleveland Foundation. You can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and many other podcast platforms. Find more details about Living For We at ideastream.org. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or anywhere you find podcasts.
Maya Moore was a WNBA Champion, MVP, and superstar when she left the game in her prime to pursue more justice in the US criminal justice system. The incarcerated man she advocated for, Jonathan Irons, had been advocating for prison reform from the inside. Now the two are married and sharing their story through their book Love & Justice. UrbanFaith sat down with Maya and Jonathan to talk about their incredible story following Jesus to sacrifice and live out their faith by seeking justice for the least of these. Excerpts from the interview below have been edited for length and clarity.
Allen
We are here with Jonathan Irons and Maya Moore Irons to talk about their book Love and Justice, the story of their incredible journeys; Jonathan in advocating for justice and Maya in joining in that justice fight after being a WNBA superstar. Can you talk about just that how the context and the environments that you are you all were in, allowed you to see that injustice in different ways?
Jonathan
I mean, it’s not hard. Like kids that are going on struggling and poverty and in situations that are just unfair and disadvantaged. I volunteered with kids down at the school called Peace Prep. And like they are aware, like they’re very intelligent. They are aware that they’re not getting the same type of resources and as other kids in other schools. They are aware that their city is riddled with addicts and there’s criminal activity that’s going on. They think police don’t like them and don’t care about them. And I won’t say that they’re making it up. Like I had so many different examples of things that just showed me that I wouldn’t be treated like everybody else [growing up]. And it just felt like people were being dismissive. Like my teacher didn’t like that I had so much energy. I was always up and down up and down up and down. Maya had a teacher that basically allowed her to stand around and use her energy and she turned into sports and encouraged her like, burn your energy off. Be a kid. Like for me, I didn’t have that experience. And I was aware of that. I was aware that I was treated different than other kids. I went I went to a friend’s house and they had a toilet. I didn’t have one. I’m like, man, what is that? They were like “oh that’s a toilet. That’s where we use the bathroom.” I’m used to a five gallon bucket and bathing in a tin tub. And then fast forward into prison. Like, I’m seeing like the racial inequality. I’m like, how is it that we’re the minority here [in America], but there are more black people that are in prison than there are any other race. I don’t understand this. What’s going on? And then I started to dig into it. I started to look at statistics. I started to read case law and treaties. I started to watch the news. I started asking questions. I started to let my curiosity just run wild. And I got to really see like all the injustices that are happening, happening around me. It got so bad that I overcame my own fear and I started to advocate for other people. I advocated for ice in prison because they stopped giving it to us for a long time. Filed complaints about that and basically talked to the warden face to face and like explained like, “hey, man, this is a basic human right in here that the Supreme Court has already said that we need yet we are not getting that.” And there is a list of things like you don’t have to worry about getting all those other things that were missing. Just give us this. Like just fighting for basic things. It’s like, if you if you have eyes to see, you cannot miss it. That’s why I kind of share some of the some of the things that were happening in prison to me.
Allen
And what about you Maya?
Maya
I think when we, you know, we’re born into the generation that we’re born into. And Ava DuVernay had a quote, I think she was quoting someone else about our mindset…about how we do this together. And the illustration was you inherit this house. We’re all living in this house. And we look at the house and there’s mold over here. There’s some foundations that are just rotting away. There’s broken windows over here and we say, we didn’t break that window. I’m not responsible for the mold over there. But this is the house that we’ve been given. And so it’s our responsibility to fix it as much as we can as best as we can. We have to look at people as people first and foremost. That’s the fundamental skill. Like in basketball, first thing you learn to do other than dribble is shoot. The fundamental skill is you have to be able to see people. We need other people who’ve gone before to help us know. The house is broken like what do we do? [We go to] that mom, grandma, grandpa, like somebody ahead of us. Help me know how to respond to this and say don’t panic baby I know this looks bad, but we can fix this. I had people to show me this is something we can do to help this system correct. And then also just being in relationship, that’s the majority of the work is not being afraid to be in a relationship with the people who have been stepped on. I had a measure of privilege. And I tried to use that to say hey, I’m no better than you. We’re both humans, you deserve to be treated like a human. I’m just saying everybody have basic humanity. Then your work ethic, or your gifts can kind of, you know take you where it goes but basic humanity cannot be a negotiable. So that’s kind of where I came in of like, I didn’t know this was happening. We need to do something because we can do something with this house that we inherited.
Allen
Can you talk about what you how your faith has motivated and played into [your work]?
Jonathan
Yeah, as you look into the Bible, you won’t find Superman in the Bible. You won’t find Batman. You won’t find people that were flawless outside of Jesus. Like everybody [had flaws]. Moses was a murderer. You could just pick anybody a character in the Bible any person in the Bible and see something. And what that does is it lets you know you’re not alone in your flaws and your weaknesses. And what that does, they call us to remember when we see other people that are struggling that are going through things. It calls us to look at them like, “hey, I have my weaknesses. We all need to have compassion on each other. We all need to help each other.” It calls us to remember those people that are less fortunate than we are.. We are supposed to want them to have the same things that we would want. We have to remember the vulnerable. Everybody’s got something going on, whether they want to admit it or not, whether it’s in the forefront or not, we all wrestle with things. And we are called to just lean into each other and be a part of community and show up for each other. And be present and speak out against injustice and things that are happening in this world. And me reading through the Bible and seeing that playing that out. Like, that is that is that to me that’s God talking to me through this word, and through other people, through my environment. God is asking you to remember those people and care for those people where you can that are disadvantaged.
Allen
Yeah, Matthew 25 right, if you did for the least of these you did it to me. Maya, can you talk about how your faith plays into this work? Because it’s a huge step going from where you were to where you are now and focused on caring for the least of these and seeking justice.
Jonathan
I was one of the least of these.
Maya
Man, understanding God’s story, right? God has given us a story. And he says there’s a competing story. There’s the story of the world, of the flesh, of devil is like what does that mean? And it’s a way of seeing that is contrary to the kingdom of God. Every day, we have a choice to make. Are we going to believe God’s story, which is the real story or are we going to believe this world story, this empire story? I think we just unfortunately see some of these systems that have been set up in our house right… in our culture. That are so empire and just crush people and dehumanize and devalue and use and manipulate and coerce all based off of [the idea that] I want to preserve myself.
I’m so fortunate to have been able to feel like I’ve been walking with the Lord since around middle school where my faith became my own, before my name became a name. I had that basketball experience with an awareness [that] my identity is “I’m God’s daughter,” and my purpose is not building my name [or] becoming the best, or making the most money. That wasn’t what got me up out of bed. And so when the when the time came where God was like really making it clear to my heart the shift that I needed to make out of that sports entertainment rhythm into a different rhythm that was unknown. [What was it] going to look like when I stepped away from the game in 2019? But I knew it was leading me towards doing more in this kingdom story that I was learning more about, which required me to give some stuff up; some of my comforts, my status or whatever you want to call it in order to be the hands and feet of Jesus and show up and do the hard things and get educated humble myself learn from people. When I was able to speak and use my platform, I could be helpful and accurate in trying to encourage and equip people. It’s about seeing God’s kingdom as clearly and as rightly as I can and then being able to live my life in a way that makes that kingdom a reality as much as I can every day. Which again is going to probably mean some sacrifice right, love costs. Jesus did sacrifice a lot for love, restoration, and redemption. But it was for the joy that was set before Him. Looking ahead to that future joy. We might not see the full benefit of what our lives are going to do but we’re tasting it now in bits. Until that fullness comes into play. But it is the center of all that we do.
Allen
Jonathan your story is unfortunately not unique enough that there are so many people who are subject to this criminal justice system that the statistics are pointing to that, but that you offer hope that there is something in the midst of it to be gained and that there are is a fight to be fought. Maya you gave up a lot. But showed there’s more to life than WNBA of success and living out our faith can mean a lot for us. So I just thank you both so much. Any last words of wisdom for young folks were out there?
Jonathan
I want to say you can’t make this type of story up. [The one I lived.] You can’t do that. And I’ll say this, it can be your darkest moments. Don’t forget that God loves you. And God got your back. All you got to do is seek a relationship with Him. I promise you. You won’t regret it.
Allen
Maya any parting words?
Maya
I would just say when you get discouraged because it can be [discouraging], it’s just it’s part of life. If you look into the dark it’s discouraging, but don’t stay there. There is something. There are people. There are things in motion that are happening that you can plug into. I’d say get plugged in to something because we can’t just look at the dark things by ourselves in our inner room. If we’re going to look at hard stuff you’ve to link arms and be like, we’re going to look at this together and we’re going to do something together. So, my encouragement is always get plugged in to something already happening and stuff will happen out of that. Keep encouraged and keep moving forward. The black church has modeled resilient ways for centuries. It’s not a new thing. There’s a legacy there. Learn and plug into those elders. There are people who have [wisdom], there’s jewels that are still alive that we can have conversations with and glean from. Let us continue to lift up our people who have gone before and make sure they’re appreciated and that we’re receiving what they can pour out. Because those are team members that need to be honored and still have something to offer us. Keep learning.
Man, one of my favorite authors, I mean, I just want to be blunt with you. Every time I see you on Meet the Press, Eddie, I’m always like, he is dead on about something. I don’t know where it comes from. So where were you when you said to yourself, “Self, I need to write a book [like] We Are The Leaders that We’ve been Looking For?”
Dr. Glaude
You know, this book is based on a set of lectures I delivered like in 2011. And I was so angry at that moment. Everybody was excited about the Obama presidency. And I was angry in some ways, doc, that people were reading Obama’s presidency as the fulfillment of the black freedom struggle. That that’s what the object of all that sacrifice was for, was to get a black man in the White House. And I just thought, that’s not true. What happened to love, what happened to justice, what happened to the moral dimension of the movement? I wanted to think through that. I wanted to figure out what were we relinquishing, what were we giving up in that moment. And then fast forward, all these years later, I returned to those lectures. And I returned to them because in some ways I had lost my footing. I was trying to figure things out because COVID had disrupted so much, I had lost two partners. I felt like I was unmoored, untethered as it were. And I knew these lectures were a moment when I was trying to usher in a new way of being for myself, a new way of thinking for myself, a new way of writing for myself. So I wanted to go back to that moment. And lo and behold, I saw what I was trying to do differently. So all of this happened in the summer of 2023. And I got to work. And then I submitted the manuscript to the editor at Harvard University Press and they were like, OMG, let’s get this out as soon as we can.
Maina
What would you say to people who feel the disillusionment of people who are going, “I don’t want to be the leader?”
Dr. Glaude
I think part of what I’m trying to argue is that when we outsource our responsibility for the house [of this country], when we say, well, I don’t want to pay the mortgage then we know what’s going to happen. And so we cannot outsource our responsibility for democracy any longer to so called prophets, to so called heroes, to politicians. We have to understand this is where Ella Baker, Miss Baker, is so important that we are our salvation in this instanc. Of course, that that doesn’t disregard one’s faith claims, but it’s what we do.And there’s a somewhat cliche at the heart of the book. And that is that if we are the leaders we’ve been looking for, then we got to become better people. We got to reach for higher forms of excellence. James Baldwin used to put it this way, the messiness of the world is often a reflection of the messiness of our interior lives. So if we don’t begin to do that hard work on becoming better people, then we can’t be the source of significant change. But I also should say this, doing the hard work of becoming a better human being must take place alongside of [and] within our ongoing effort to make a more just world. Because the world as it currently is organized gets in the way of us becoming better people. It’s almost like you’re rewarded to be selfish, you’re rewarded to be greedy, you’re rewarded to be mean spirited, you’re rewarded to be self-regarded. You’re not rewarded if you’re other regarded, if you’re not regarded if you have an I, thou relationship [with others as non-objects], you’re not regarded if you’re committed to justice, if you’re committed to the least of these, you see what I mean? If you’re maladjusted to an unjust world, you’re not rewarded. So we got to do the hard work of self-cultivation in pursuit of a more just world. That’s the heart of the book.
Maina
Which one of these people did you fall in love with the most? You’re taking some of the very, very best and you’re dropping them right in front of us and there are nuggets right in front of us. Which one did you go, “I am more in line with this leader.”
Dr. Glaude
It depends on what age you ask me. So when I was a young kid growing up in Mississippi, Dr. King meant everything. I remember checking out the album, show you how old I am. It was the vinyl of Dr. King’s “I Have a Dream” speech. It was the March on Washington. And I remember stopping it and learning it by memory from Mrs. Mitchell’s eighth grade history class. And Dr. King was so important to how I imagined myself. When I got to Morehouse, you’re baptized in King’s thought. You got the statue of him looking at you. And so King was so important for me at a young age. But then when I got to Morehouse, Malcolm became my guy. And I have my goatee to this day. I will never cut it off as kind of testimony from my first conversion experience, reading The Autobiography of Malcolm X. So here I am excited to be at King’s Alma Mater and my freshman year, this guy walks up to me and said, “You’re like a hand without a thumb. You don’t know who you are.” And he gave me Malcolm X’s autobiography. And I read it that night. And I found the language for my father’s anger. I found the language for how to imagine myself as a man, given the fact that I was so afraid because my father scared me to death. Malcolm became this hero of mine that I cut my political teeth on. And now here I am in my fifties. And Miss Baker is all up in me. It’s a more mature voice, I suppose, but we wouldn’t have a black freedom struggle of the 20th century if it wasn’t for her. And the way in which she has that wonderful line, “A strong people doesn’t need a strong leader.” And I said this once, I was speaking, I think it was in Chicago. I was like, “What happens when you have fans in the pews and a celebrity in the pulpit?” The church is dead. It’s done. I think we’re seeing a lot of that right now. What happens when you outsource your faith journey to someone else? And so part of what I’ve been trying to do is to live Miss Baker’s edict. Because the title of the book comes from her. We are the leaders we have been looking for. She says, “We have to convince people that their salvation is in their hands.” What we choose to do. Not what the preacher chooses to do, not what the politician chooses to do. So not what Malcolm inspired me to do, not what King leads me to do, but what’s coming from inside of my heart in light of the exemplars of excellence and love that inform and shape my own voice as I understand it. And that’s what I’m writing towards in the book.
Maina
You keep talking to me. So last question. Sure. Your spiritual faith journey, did that come into play in this book at all?
Dr. Glaude
It’s at work in all of my texts. To be honest with you, it’s me trying to understand what does it what does it mean to be decent and loving? What does it mean to exemplify the ministry of Jesus without it being overlaid with dogma and an institutional constraint. So when I call for a coalition of the decent, animated by the power of love, that is the exacting power of love. That is that is at the heart of my religious Christian witness, as it were. And there’s a moment in the book near the end where I’m going to invoke Jimmy Baldwin again. He has this extraordinary essay that is published after his after his death is entitled “To Crush A Serpent.” And in this in this essay, he is relentless in his critique of the Fallwells and the moral majority and the like. But he talks about what salvation involves, what it entails. And it’s an echo of an earlier essay, a talk that he gave at Kalamazoo in 1961, entitled “In Search For A Majority.” And he says salvation is found in effect in “the going towards.” Salvation is found in the going towards in some ways. And I want to suggest that salvation is found in the going towards and love is its carriage. So the short answer to the question is, is yes, me trying to figure all of this out, indebted to the Christian tradition, but not limited by it. Those lectures produced an uncommon faith. So the short answer is yes, all my books are or attempts to make sense of this complex journey that I’m making in terms of my faith.
The full interview is above. Excerpts from the interview are below. Dr. Wilkes book Plenty Good Room is available for purchase here.
Allen
We have the Reverend Dr. Andrew Wilkes talking about his book today Plenty Good Room. He has written for us in the past many years ago as an intern, but now continuing his work as a political scientist, social thinker, and a pastor.
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
It’s good to see you, Allen, a joy to be in conversation, deep appreciation for Urban Faith and of course for the wider work beginning in the 70s of knowing Black folk need Black authored materials for Christian Education that are culturally relevant that you and I has been doing all down through the years.
Allen
Why did you feel like you wanted to write this and get your thoughts out in Plenty Good Room?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Yeah, really appreciate the question. Plenty Good Room, as I note in the preface, is part argument, part appeal, part prayer. And it’s something that I’ve been pulling together for the last 10 years or so, went through research and other means that I noted that so much of our approach to economics is still grounded on a mental model, a planning model of scarcity and austerity, rather than a beginning operating assumption of sufficiency and abundance. And so the prayer, the appeal, the argument is that if we’re in a moment where, let’s take America for instance, where we have gross domestic product of some $26 trillion, whatever we have, it’s not scarcity and it’s not austerity. We’re in a place where we have to think through the public choices and the public priorities that we make. And so Plenty Good Room is trying to argue that public choices and public policy is not simply a technical consideration for experts, but it’s rather an encompassing matter for the full body of Christ, for everybody that considers themselves to be a neighbor, or somehow enmeshed exactly as you named in this work of trying to create a better world.
Allen
A lot of folks may have heard of socialism. We certainly have black Christians. Can you define black Christian socialism for us?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Yeah, so I’d like to define it by image, because I think that’s helpful. Black folk play spades and when you play spades, you have a hand. And we tend to think that the hand that somebody plays with and wins depends on the skill or the savvy of the person who’s playing their particular hand. But what really is the meat and potatoes and often the most influential factor is the distribution of cars that one has in their hand. Do you have the Joker? Do you have the deuce of diamonds or the deuce of spades depending on how you play? I know black folk plays spades differently in different regions, but the question of distribution is co-equal to in some cases more important than the individual skill of the spades player. And you may have perhaps heard those who are listening may have perhaps heard folks say, I can’t even do nothing with this hand right here. And so, I talk about spades as a way to get the question of distribution and black person socialism on the table, because too often the question of what it means to be a justice-oriented Christian devolves into a kind of budget shaming or financial scolding of how folks save, invest, spend or how they don’t. Rather than having a question about how are we co-creating and distributing the resources in a context where we affirm that the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. And so, in a nutshell, black Christian socialism is about trying to pay more attention to the pre distribution and the redistribution of resources so that all of God’s children can flourish and help make decisions about stuff they help create.
Allen
I love that image. And one of the things that you lift in the pre-distribution but also in thinking about what has happened before us as you spend some time with history and I think it’s important for people to see that this is not new stuff, right. The ideas are rooted in our traditions.
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Very much so.
Allen
Can you talk about some of that history, some of those figures you lift up, you know, Dr King and bell hooks and, and, you know, can you talk about some of why that history is important and where the historical precedence is for something like this, this black Christian socialism?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Absolutely. You know, in 1896 in the middle of trying to figure out how industrial capitalism and in a moment before public health codes and building codes whereas modernized as they are now, you have a Reverend Dee Ransom, who’s pastoring a church in Chicago, no, no less in the institutional and me church later to become an AME bishop, who writes in an 1896 edition of the AME church review about Christians and socialism. You have a black bishop in the Episcopal church, the door Holly, who in that same issue. Again, this is, you know, 140 years or so, prior to our current moment addressing the same and they talk about the values and the virtues of the carpenter from Galilee and how questions of socialism and Christianity need to be on the table as we think about what it means to express a kind of discipleship, civic responsibility, agitation for justice that can fully serve black people and so in terms of the history. I point out the fact that it’s not just individual outlier clergy, but this is a denominational church press, which is talking about black churches and socialism. And on just a plain level. I think it’s important to open up the continuum of optionality for Christians that there is no inherent marriage and in fact I’d argue there’s some a good deal of antagonism between Christians and Christianity as a religious tradition and capitalism. Even if one doesn’t buy that premise, certainly Christians should be able to choose the political economy that they feel best matches their vision of what Christ’s message in ministry is all about. And what I’m simply saying is that I think we need to see that the radical stream of black social Christianity has always existed and has turned towards things like mutual aid and socialism to express what it looks like to turn the world upside down.
Allen
You can’t read Acts right you can’t read Acts 2 and Acts 4 and not see this. Can you talk about some of those biblical foundations, especially for people who may not be as familiar or may have not read those scriptures? Can you talk about how that’s rooted in our faith and rooted in scripture?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Absolutely. Beautiful question. You know I think about a number of places we see Jesus and Luke 4 talking about how the Spirit of Lord is upon me to preach good news to the poor to bind up the broken hearted to set the captives free announce the acceptable year of the Lord’s favor. But we often miss Luke chapter one, Mary’s Magnificent where she talks about the humble being exalted, the mighty pulled down from their thrones, the rich being sent away empty and the hungry being filled with with good things, whatever that correlates to it certainly doesn’t correlate to Silicon Valley Wall Street dominated capitalism. When we look at the vision of what I think we can interpret our current moment not saying this was the concern of the office but in terms of our current moment acts to and for talks about a fellowship dedicated to the teaching of the Apostles and folks sharing all things in common. And so we have this cooperative pooling together of resources that we see as contemporary as black churches creating credit units to get away from predatory finance systems that wouldn’t give fair loans or gave predatory loans to black people like folks that wait, wait, wait, we can pull our resources together. We can have membership in a financial entity where we can resist white supremacist notions of credit worthiness and instead do what the best of church traditions have done as canonizing scripture, but also as practice by our people down through the years and so I think credit unions are one way to live into that and so we can do and for tradition. But there’s also a sense of wanting to have a comprehensive vision of economic justice and when I think of a passage like James five, which is a sim essentially a manifesto against wage theft. And so this is about how farmers farm workers had wages withheld from this. This is James words that my from from the rich and the text says that the wages cried out and that the Lord of Hosts, her. This is a kind of a caring through of that kind of Exodus 3 of God hearing the cries of folks who experienced economic oppression, and the church men called to do something about that. In a nutshell, Allen, what I am suggesting is that a model of what some economists and sociologists have called solidarity economics is a way to try to translate this beloved community, this co creating tradition that we see in the scriptures. This way we can translate that into how we do public finance, how we do nonprofit work, how we do community development, how the church engages with labor unions, and how we can think beyond the two party system in America because multi party democracy is a common thing for churches and most of God’s creation, it ought to be something that we do here in the States as well.
Allen
How can people join into these conversations or do some things on the ground to make this implemented because it is something that’s actually possible now that’s being done now?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
Absolutely. So, a few things. I mean, on the policy front, we’ve talked a bit about calling for supporting already existing credit unions with respect to finance community land trust with respect to housing. Solid wealth funds that are democratically controlled with respect to economic development models and rural metropolitan suburban and exurban areas, calling for the use of taxation policies that prioritizes families that are rather that prioritizes working families rather than tax abatement strategies in perpetuity to build stadiums that project jobs which I’ve never quite created at the volume and at the pay rates that the models say will take places. I think there’s a way to participate specifically and land use zoning and town planning conversation that says how can we use the fiscal leverage that the public sector has in a way to generate full employment in our communities and a way to generate more catalytic investment from nonprofits from small businesses from arts and cultural institutions which are often unheralded economic drivers in terms of the demand that they bring to cities through concerts through forum through symposium. Anytime you talk about stimulating consumer demand and bringing people to an area that’s an economic impact that should be seen as such and not explained away because it may not be, you know, a cash cow in the way that say a high profit yield tech industry is. So, my point in saying that last piece and talking about equitable forms and models of economic development and getting people involved, not just in voting, but in planning conversations and city council meetings, calling for things like public banks. That is the way on the policy front that I think we can start to activate and make more actionable what may feel like a big conversation. The other piece that I’d say and I think there’s a theological piece to this explicitly that I want to name. I think it’s important to add more detail to the vision of what often goes by beloved community but so many things have been described as beloved community or social justice. And when you scratch below the surface, it’s the vision of economic empowerment for those who are already well connected, well degreed, well spoken, and those whose new divergence or whose multi-lingual gifts or who’s not quite being at the center of social status and power isn’t quite as central to those visions. I think it’s important for us to recognize that gap and then be to draw from some of our most famous and heralded figures. Martin Luther King Junior is and was known by his colleagues as a Democratic socialist to draw on late Reverend Dr. Katie Geneva Cannon, who in womanism and the soul of community. It’s drawing on the work of Oliver Cox to make a very similar point. The take home being that when we think of what it means to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God, the 21st century expression of that is to work in politics, to work in economics, to work for nonprofits, to work in unmet need round tables that do mutual aid. Right, because it’s not inherently turning towards government. There may be some, not maybe there are ways to distribute resources and a philanthropic and like peer to peer with that can also cause justice. And so what I’m simply saying, Allen, is that, and I know I’m taking the scenic route. Now I’m going to land the plane. The being a systems change sustainably minded Christian who’s concerned about justice, not for an election cycle and not just for the temporary upswing in a business cycle, I think has to mean that that some kind of socialism or cooperative expression is a viable consideration.
Allen
What advice would you give to younger believers about how they can try to live into a more just economy politics world that you have studied and see playing out ?
Dr. Andrew Wilkes
The first place that that go is to is to take a comprehensive, consistent and consecrated view of everything you’ve studied, including scripture, but not ending with scripture. And I’m inspired by the pause letter to the church of Philippi where he says, you know, whatsoever is good whatsoever is pleasing whatsoever is lovely whatsoever is just whatsoever is essentially virtuous thing on these things. And so that that call to consistently study to think to research, certainly is a call to dig deeply into the canon of scripture. But I think it’s equally a call to think through what does justice mean in terms of political science what does it mean in terms of the different institutions that shape identity and community that will take you to sociology What does it mean in terms of psychology what does it mean in terms of reading the newspaper consistently and beyond just Fox CNN and MSNBC like once in the local newspaper and neighborhood weekly. So that one can get a sense of how public affairs plays out in your immediate environment as well as meetings and pre existing convenings there’s almost always somebody working on what you care about exactly where you are that you just may not know about and so the call to study the call to see what’s already working and to presume that you want the only one that God has spoken to and stirred up for justice. So, the call to lock arms and join in Federation with folk who are trying to do God’s work of renewal and of making those who are too often put last in our society put first.
Maina
Dr. Glaude