Plenty Good Room: UrbanFaith x Rev. Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Plenty Good Room: UrbanFaith x Rev. Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Plenty Good Room: Co-Creating An Economy of Enough for All

An Interview with Rev. Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Allen

We have the Reverend Dr. Andrew Wilkes talking about his book today Plenty Good Room. He has written for us in the past many years ago as an intern, but now continuing his work as a political scientist, social thinker, and a pastor.

Dr. Andrew Wilkes

It’s good to see you, Allen, a joy to be in conversation, deep appreciation for Urban Faith and of course for the wider work beginning in the 70s of knowing Black folk need Black authored materials for Christian Education that are culturally relevant that you and I has been doing all down through the years.

 

Allen

Why did you feel like you wanted to write this and get your thoughts out in Plenty Good Room?

Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Yeah, really appreciate the question. Plenty Good Room, as I note in the preface, is part argument, part appeal, part prayer. And it’s something that I’ve been pulling together for the last 10 years or so, went through research and other means that I noted that so much of our approach to economics is still grounded on a mental model, a planning model of scarcity and austerity, rather than a beginning operating assumption of sufficiency and abundance. And so the prayer, the appeal, the argument is that if we’re in a moment where, let’s take America for instance, where we have gross domestic product of some $26 trillion, whatever we have, it’s not scarcity and it’s not austerity. We’re in a place where we have to think through the public choices and the public priorities that we make. And so Plenty Good Room is trying to argue that public choices and public policy is not simply a technical consideration for experts, but it’s rather an encompassing matter for the full body of Christ, for everybody that considers themselves to be a neighbor, or somehow enmeshed exactly as you named in this work of trying to create a better world.

 

Allen

A lot of folks may have heard of socialism. We certainly have black Christians. Can you define black Christian socialism for us?

Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Yeah, so I’d like to define it by image, because I think that’s helpful. Black folk play spades and when you play spades, you have a hand. And we tend to think that the hand that somebody plays with and wins depends on the skill or the savvy of the person who’s playing their particular hand. But what really is the meat and potatoes and often the most influential factor is the distribution of cars that one has in their hand. Do you have the Joker? Do you have the deuce of diamonds or the deuce of spades depending on how you play? I know black folk plays spades differently in different regions, but the question of distribution is co-equal to in some cases more important than the individual skill of the spades player. And you may have perhaps heard those who are listening may have perhaps heard folks say, I can’t even do nothing with this hand right here. And so, I talk about spades as a way to get the question of distribution and black person socialism on the table, because too often the question of what it means to be a justice-oriented Christian devolves into a kind of budget shaming or financial scolding of how folks save, invest, spend or how they don’t. Rather than having a question about how are we co-creating and distributing the resources in a context where we affirm that the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. And so, in a nutshell, black Christian socialism is about trying to pay more attention to the pre distribution and the redistribution of resources so that all of God’s children can flourish and help make decisions about stuff they help create.

Allen

I love that image. And one of the things that you lift in the pre-distribution but also in thinking about what has happened before us as you spend some time with history and I think it’s important for people to see that this is not new stuff, right. The ideas are rooted in our traditions.

 

Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Very much so.

Allen

Can you talk about some of that history, some of those figures you lift up, you know, Dr King and bell hooks and, and, you know, can you talk about some of why that history is important and where the historical precedence is for something like this, this black Christian socialism?

Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Absolutely. You know, in 1896 in the middle of trying to figure out how industrial capitalism and in a moment before public health codes and building codes whereas modernized as they are now, you have a Reverend Dee Ransom, who’s pastoring a church in Chicago, no, no less in the institutional and me church later to become an AME bishop, who writes in an 1896 edition of the AME church review about Christians and socialism. You have a black bishop in the Episcopal church, the door Holly, who in that same issue. Again, this is, you know, 140 years or so, prior to our current moment addressing the same and they talk about the values and the virtues of the carpenter from Galilee and how questions of socialism and Christianity need to be on the table as we think about what it means to express a kind of discipleship, civic responsibility, agitation for justice that can fully serve black people and so in terms of the history. I point out the fact that it’s not just individual outlier clergy, but this is a denominational church press, which is talking about black churches and socialism. And on just a plain level. I think it’s important to open up the continuum of optionality for Christians that there is no inherent marriage and in fact I’d argue there’s some a good deal of antagonism between Christians and Christianity as a religious tradition and capitalism. Even if one doesn’t buy that premise, certainly Christians should be able to choose the political economy that they feel best matches their vision of what Christ’s message in ministry is all about. And what I’m simply saying is that I think we need to see that the radical stream of black social Christianity has always existed and has turned towards things like mutual aid and socialism to express what it looks like to turn the world upside down.

 

Allen

You can’t read Acts right you can’t read Acts 2 and Acts 4 and not see this. Can you talk about some of those biblical foundations, especially for people who may not be as familiar or may have not read those scriptures? Can you talk about how that’s rooted in our faith and rooted in scripture?

 

Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Absolutely. Beautiful question. You know I think about a number of places we see Jesus and Luke 4 talking about how the Spirit of Lord is upon me to preach good news to the poor to bind up the broken hearted to set the captives free announce the acceptable year of the Lord’s favor. But we often miss Luke chapter one, Mary’s Magnificent where she talks about the humble being exalted, the mighty pulled down from their thrones, the rich being sent away empty and the hungry being filled with with good things, whatever that correlates to it certainly doesn’t correlate to Silicon Valley Wall Street dominated capitalism. When we look at the vision of what I think we can interpret our current moment not saying this was the concern of the office but in terms of our current moment acts to and for talks about a fellowship dedicated to the teaching of the Apostles and folks sharing all things in common. And so we have this cooperative pooling together of resources that we see as contemporary as black churches creating credit units to get away from predatory finance systems that wouldn’t give fair loans or gave predatory loans to black people like folks that wait, wait, wait, we can pull our resources together. We can have membership in a financial entity where we can resist white supremacist notions of credit worthiness and instead do what the best of church traditions have done as canonizing scripture, but also as practice by our people down through the years and so I think credit unions are one way to live into that and so we can do and for tradition. But there’s also a sense of wanting to have a comprehensive vision of economic justice and when I think of a passage like James five, which is a sim essentially a manifesto against wage theft. And so this is about how farmers farm workers had wages withheld from this. This is James words that my from from the rich and the text says that the wages cried out and that the Lord of Hosts, her. This is a kind of a caring through of that kind of Exodus 3 of God hearing the cries of folks who experienced economic oppression, and the church men called to do something about that. In a nutshell, Allen, what I am suggesting is that a model of what some economists and sociologists have called solidarity economics is a way to try to translate this beloved community, this co creating tradition that we see in the scriptures. This way we can translate that into how we do public finance, how we do nonprofit work, how we do community development, how the church engages with labor unions, and how we can think beyond the two party system in America because multi party democracy is a common thing for churches and most of God’s creation, it ought to be something that we do here in the States as well.

 

Allen

How can people join into these conversations or do some things on the ground to make this implemented because it is something that’s actually possible now that’s being done now?

 

Dr. Andrew Wilkes

Absolutely. So, a few things. I mean, on the policy front, we’ve talked a bit about calling for supporting already existing credit unions with respect to finance community land trust with respect to housing. Solid wealth funds that are democratically controlled with respect to economic development models and rural metropolitan suburban and exurban areas, calling for the use of taxation policies that prioritizes families that are rather that prioritizes working families rather than tax abatement strategies in perpetuity to build stadiums that project jobs which I’ve never quite created at the volume and at the pay rates that the models say will take places. I think there’s a way to participate specifically and land use zoning and town planning conversation that says how can we use the fiscal leverage that the public sector has in a way to generate full employment in our communities and a way to generate more catalytic investment from nonprofits from small businesses from arts and cultural institutions which are often unheralded economic drivers in terms of the demand that they bring to cities through concerts through forum through symposium. Anytime you talk about stimulating consumer demand and bringing people to an area that’s an economic impact that should be seen as such and not explained away because it may not be, you know, a cash cow in the way that say a high profit yield tech industry is. So, my point in saying that last piece and talking about equitable forms and models of economic development and getting people involved, not just in voting, but in planning conversations and city council meetings, calling for things like public banks. That is the way on the policy front that I think we can start to activate and make more actionable what may feel like a big conversation. The other piece that I’d say and I think there’s a theological piece to this explicitly that I want to name. I think it’s important to add more detail to the vision of what often goes by beloved community but so many things have been described as beloved community or social justice. And when you scratch below the surface, it’s the vision of economic empowerment for those who are already well connected, well degreed, well spoken, and those whose new divergence or whose multi-lingual gifts or who’s not quite being at the center of social status and power isn’t quite as central to those visions. I think it’s important for us to recognize that gap and then be to draw from some of our most famous and heralded figures. Martin Luther King Junior is and was known by his colleagues as a Democratic socialist to draw on late Reverend Dr. Katie Geneva Cannon, who in womanism and the soul of community. It’s drawing on the work of Oliver Cox to make a very similar point. The take home being that when we think of what it means to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God, the 21st century expression of that is to work in politics, to work in economics, to work for nonprofits, to work in unmet need round tables that do mutual aid. Right, because it’s not inherently turning towards government. There may be some, not maybe there are ways to distribute resources and a philanthropic and like peer to peer with that can also cause justice. And so what I’m simply saying, Allen, is that, and I know I’m taking the scenic route. Now I’m going to land the plane. The being a systems change sustainably minded Christian who’s concerned about justice, not for an election cycle and not just for the temporary upswing in a business cycle, I think has to mean that that some kind of socialism or cooperative expression is a viable consideration.

 

Allen

What advice would you give to younger believers about how they can try to live into a more just economy politics world that you have studied and see playing out ?

 

Dr. Andrew Wilkes

The first place that that go is to is to take a comprehensive, consistent and consecrated view of everything you’ve studied, including scripture, but not ending with scripture. And I’m inspired by the pause letter to the church of Philippi where he says, you know, whatsoever is good whatsoever is pleasing whatsoever is lovely whatsoever is just whatsoever is essentially virtuous thing on these things. And so that that call to consistently study to think to research, certainly is a call to dig deeply into the canon of scripture. But I think it’s equally a call to think through what does justice mean in terms of political science what does it mean in terms of the different institutions that shape identity and community that will take you to sociology What does it mean in terms of psychology what does it mean in terms of reading the newspaper consistently and beyond just Fox CNN and MSNBC like once in the local newspaper and neighborhood weekly. So that one can get a sense of how public affairs plays out in your immediate environment as well as meetings and pre existing convenings there’s almost always somebody working on what you care about exactly where you are that you just may not know about and so the call to study the call to see what’s already working and to presume that you want the only one that God has spoken to and stirred up for justice. So, the call to lock arms and join in Federation with folk who are trying to do God’s work of renewal and of making those who are too often put last in our society put first.

 

 

Authentic Leadership: Alan Marshall II x UrbanFaith

Authentic Leadership: Alan Marshall II x UrbanFaith

Have you ever felt like you didn’t fit in because of God’s call on your life? Tired of the boxes for living faithfully that institutions and society have put on us? Want to be authentic and impactful in the work that you do? Alan Marshall II wrestled with these questions for years and found a solution in releasing his inner weirdo. His new book Unleashing Your Inner Weirdo: A Journey to Authenticity shares the wisdom, research, and encouragement believers need to embrace their unique and God given gifts and callings. UrbanFaith sat down with Alan to talk about his book and his journey. The full interview is above, excerpts from the interview are below. More about the book is below.

 

 

Allen:

My first question for you is given that you have all this experience in ministry and in business and you know, civic affairs, what made you want to write this book? What inspired you to write “Unleashing Your Inner Weirdo?”

Alan

I think the fact that I’m weird. The fact that I end up being in my head an anomaly but then realizing that other people may be just as weird as me. To think about a person who came from being a Jehovah’s Witness to travel in the world and preach the Gospel to a person who had no political or business experience ending up jumping into a hundred-million-dollar deal all because I heard from the Lord and just decided to run with what he was giving me. To do that is weird in this day. But I believe that each and every person has their gifts and their talents. That they have something about them that makes them special, something that makes them unique. And oftentimes what I find when I’m consulting with people is that they hide their weirdness. They hide some of their best abilities because they don’t know how others are going to receive them. And so, this book is about unleashing your inner weirdo coming out and hearing the voice of God and running with what he’s giving you.

Allen

You contend that believers should have a different motivation a different why. Can you talk a little bit about what that why is and why it’s important?

Alan

First we go to scripture right. The Bible says that that [Jesus] is the vine, and we are the branch and apart from him we can do nothing right in him. In Him we move and have our being. So Jesus is not the source of our why, your why is going to be perverted. It’s just how it works. Your why is going to have mission creep in it. You’re going to end up going into something that you should have probably never really [done]. But when Jesus is the center of your why he then informs what you need to do how you need to move. I was sitting with my publicist the other day and we were eating lunch, and she says like tell me a little bit about yourself like what is your niche? What sets you apart? What causes you to do stuff that like I just don’t see other people doing? And I simply said to her I hear from the Lord, and I do it. That’s it. I understand that my why is to make impact throughout this next generation throughout this generation of Millennials and Gen Z. That is my why right. And it motivates me to travel and speak and invest my time in writing books and different things like that. That is my why. And when I ask the Lord how to do it, he gives me plans to put in motion and to fulfill. You know I think of some of the greats and say I’m actually really simple. I hear from the Lord, and I do what he’s telling me to do.

Allen

What wisdom or what advice would you give to young leaders you know in whatever sphere they might be in people who are considering ministry or people who are considering business what advice would you give on how to be an authentic leader for folks who are coming up after you?

Alan

I would say the first thing I would say is one figure out who you are and a lot of times you know that’s said and it doesn’t seem that simple but there are ways that you can do that. Get mentorship that is that is willing to be transparent open and honest with you if they can do that that’s helpful. The second thing I would say is go take personality tests. Personality tests have helped me greatly especially like the disc assessment, some strength finders, personality attachment, the enneagram, all those things will help you figure out who you are but they also help you figure out who others are. Sometimes there’s just a disconnect in communication. So I would say if you want to learn to lead in authenticity and work in authenticity, simply take the time to figure out who you are and how to communicate that to others. I think that that’s not only sound advice it’s important advice because mentorship is one of the things that I feel like the generation coming after us and our generation really needed and didn’t get a lot of. But making those connections can make a huge difference.

 

In the changing world of ministry and leadership, the demand for authentic leaders has never been more vital. “Unleashing Your Inner Weirdo: A Journey to Authenticity” is a book intentionally designed to empower ministry professionals and Christian leaders with the tools and insights to lead with authenticity. This book is comprised of seven chapters that navigate its audience toward understanding and embracing their unique God-given attributes and developing an impactful and authentic leadership style.

UrbanFaith x Aaron Cole: Sorry I Changed (Again)

UrbanFaith x Aaron Cole: Sorry I Changed (Again)

UrbanFaith sat down to interview Aaron Cole, a Christian rapper and singer who started out as a teenager and is now claiming his place as an up and coming star. His new album Sorry I Changed (Again) was just released and he wonderfully balances relevance with authenticity all while being faithful. More about Aaron is below.

 

25 year-old Aaron Cole started rapping when he was just three years old. Since then, he’s garnered the coveted Dove Award for New Artist of the Year, held 3 #1 singles on the Billboard Christian HOT AC/CHR chart and has had multiple sync uses including promos for ESPN and Fox Sports. His songs have also been featured in the Netflix original series, “On My Block” among other prominent sync placements.

Named “One of 5 Top Gospel Artists to Watch” by Essence Magazine, Cole’s musical journey included releasing six independent projects prior to his signing with Gotee Records. The Bristol, VA, native was then introduced to multi-GRAMMY-award-winning producer and artist TobyMac, who has been working with him ever since.

“Aaron Cole is where it’s going, He’s a natural,” TobyMac said. “He wakes up and breathes songs that are culturally relevant, but ever aware of the spiritual. He just gets it. He has a deep love for God and a love for people that organically works its way into the lyric. The Lord has blessed him with a deep well of talent, yet he grinds like he’s ungifted. That’s a rare combination that I will lock arms with anytime, anywhere.”

Aaron released his third major-release album called Sorry, I Changed earlier this year, which includes the featured singles “SBTN (feat. Kirk Franklin),” “Proof,” “I Love It,” “Tables Turned,” and “Have Your Way.” The Deluxe edition Sorry, I Changed (Again) was just released last month. The single “Have Your Way” is out at gospel radio and samples the Carl Thomas R&B hit “I Wish.” His album encompasses the versatility he’s known for, both rapping and singing, reflecting on major changes and challenges he’s come through faith, including dealing with the loss of loved ones, family matters, getting married, and the importance of how to navigate changes to embrace continued personal growth.

When Shift Happens: Michelle McKinney Hammond x UrbanFaith

When Shift Happens: Michelle McKinney Hammond x UrbanFaith

Dr. Michelle McKinney Hammond is one of the most successful authors in the country. She is the new host of UMI’s Sunday School Made Simple. She is an award winning artist, producer, entrepreneur, host, former advertising executive, internationally sought out speaker, and faith leader. But she has had her life shaped by profound changes and difficulties. In her latest book When Shift Happens, she gets real about her struggles, her faith, and the lessons she has learned about embracing change through our seasons of life. Full interview is above. More about the book and author is below.

In When Shift Happens: Say Yes to Your Next (available September 12 from Whitaker House), Michelle examines the difference between those who flounder and those who flourish in the seasonal transitions of life. She details the ways that understanding and addressing the season you are in–and assessing its purpose–allows people to not only survive their shift, but to thrive.

Michelle brilliantly bridges the gap between modern society and ancient biblical times, showing that God has been helping people endure “shifts” for centuries. She doesn’t shy away from sharing her own challenging situations, recounting her experiences with the pandemic, a car accident, and other personal traumas, along with how she found the strength through God’s teachings to say “yes” to these challenges as they arose.

“Mindset is everything when confronted with unanticipated change,” Michelle writes in When Shift Happens. “You are never out of options unless you choose to be. Emerging cycles all point to one thing—whether you are ready or not, shift happens. It’s not the end. There’s always a next!”

 

MORE ON THE AUTHOR: Many discovered the explosive talent of Michelle McKinney Hammond with her first bestseller, What to Do Until Love Finds You: Getting Ready for Mr. Right, in 1997. Since that time, Michelle has enjoyed a multifaceted career as an author, speaker, singer, producer, actress, relationship expert, and life coach, reaching men and women from all walks of life.

UrbanFaith x Sow and Tell

UrbanFaith x Sow and Tell

Denya & Cellus Hamilton were inspired by the idea of being faithful to God while working in the marketplace. But they didn’t see a space for Black & Brown people to talk about faith and works. So they created one. Sow & Tell is their organization devoted to creating community and equipping leaders to live out their faith and be impactful in their work life. Their annual conference titled “There Will Be Fruit” on April 6, 2024 will be the largest yet in NYC as they welcome professionals and creatives of color to engage learn and connect. You can register here. UrbanFaith sat down with Denya & Cellus to talk about the conference and why they are passionate about integrating faith and works. More about the conference is below.

Like the tax collector and fishermen, Jesus found many of us while we were working—But instead of commanding us to shift careers, He altered what we’d fish for. And this is why There Will Be Fruit exists.

Join 150+ Christian marketplace leaders of color in NYC on Saturday April 6, 2024 at the only Faith and Work conference for the Black and Brown community, known as There Will Be Fruit.

Expect panels, breakout sessions, network opportunities, vendors, a celebration mixer, and more!

We’ll All Be Free: UrbanFaith x Caroline Sumlin

We’ll All Be Free: UrbanFaith x Caroline Sumlin

Many of us battle for self-worth in a world that is constantly bombarding us with messages that we are not enough. But author Caroline Sumlin argues that the enemy we are fighting is not just our own thoughts, but the insidious nature of white supremacy and the ways it impacts our society. UrbanFaith Editor Allen Reynolds interviewed influencer and author Caroline Sumlin about her new book We’ll All Be Free which confronts white supremacy’s assault on our self worth no matter what our background is, and shares ways we can liberate ourselves, each other, and seek healing. The book is available everywhere. The full interview is above, excerpts below have been edited for clarity and length. More about the book is below.

———————–

Allen

Hello, Urban Faith. It is a joy and a pleasure to be with just an awesome person someone who I’ve known for a long time who is doing work as an Instagram influencer as an author now that is Caroline Sumlin. And she has written a new book, We’ll All Be Free about dismantling white supremacy talking about self-worth. Why is it that you think it’s important that we deal with these difficult and tough issues?

 

Caroline

I think we can see the impacts of not having the tough conversations on our society. Even taking white supremacy aside, when we talk about going to therapy or we talk about dealing with mental health, we talk about trauma. We talk about those tough things. One of the most basic ways that parents sometimes explain emotions to children… is that they’re like farts. Kids don’t have any inhibitions to keep things in because they know it feels good to let out the burp, to pass gas, to cry, to get angry, to stomp our feet, right? They live and then guess what happens? They feel better because they release that stuff. As adults, we are conditioned to keep things inside, to be ashamed of it, to be ashamed of our humanity. And then what happens? The anger happens, right? The crippling and debilitating mental health [issues] happen. I could go on to name things. I mean, I even think the rise in gun violence, all of that is connected to the fact that we are not dealing with what’s going on inside, both individually, but also systemically. The culture we have created has magnified a society of people that are walking around with a lot of anger, with a lot of hurt, with a lot of unworthiness that they don’t realize is going on. Then we wonder why we see what we see in society. And I understand that people would also argue well having the conversations can also lead to “division.” And I would argue back that the reason why we see division when we have these conversations is because we have been conditioned to be defensive. We’ve been conditioned to ignore certain things and as a result we haven’t been [healthy]… But that’s all the more reason to keep going and to keep fighting and say, “Hey, we can get healthy. It takes work.” You know, no one goes to therapy and comes out smiling every day. You’re going to go to therapy and you’re going to come out with tears. You’re going to come out with anger. You may have to process some things that may feel uncomfortable at first, but then the burden starts to lift off your shoulders and it does get better. I do believe in pushing and continuing to have the conversation. I do believe that there will be a positive ending, but sometimes the messy middle is just necessary.

 

 

Allen

You have that chapter on hustle culture and how that’s tied to white supremacy. Can you just talk a little bit about that?

 

Caroline

Yeah, absolutely. I have an entire chapter on this because it is one of the biggest ways that white supremacy culture shows up in our daily lives. Are the entire idea of the American dream and the message that we are given as young children that if you just work hard enough and you just go to college and you’ll be able to achieve this ideal life in America, you’ll be able to buy a house, you’ll be able to have your family, you’ll be able to afford certain things and you’ll have that American dream. Over time that American dream has become a lot higher, a lot narrower. It used to be that middle class and now it’s gone beyond that at this point because again with the white supremacy culture, the standard is always moving. But I wanted to make sure that the readers were able to understand again the roots in that. I wanted to look at where [this idea comes] from where we have to achieve to be worthy. What [is] the definition of achievement, what the definition of success is, where did that come from? What is the definition of professionalism? Where does elitism come from? Where are all these different beliefs? Even the way that we look at intellect and how we score ourselves. All these things have roots, they have backgrounds. Even the economic decisions and how we’ve gotten to the point of having this free market and why again those decisions were being made.

I was able to tie all of that to racist ideas, systemic racism, white supremacy. The ideal in our country is that whiteness should always be the standard, should always be what rules the country, should always be what leads the country, should always be what’s in charge. And to be successful, you have to assimilate to that. And that comes from, again, decisions that were being made based on ensuring that there was a racial hierarchy. Creating these standards in education, these standards in professionalism, these standards in our careers to ensure that that hierarchy always maintains. If you happen to be a person of color and you happen to kind of ascend higher than what, you know, the status quo says that you’re supposed to be as a person of color, well, you had to assimilate quite a bit and you had to make sure that you essentially connect yourself or tie yourself to whiteness in order to get there. And then if you happen to be a white person, there still is the fact of the matter is the standards of whiteness are also very inhuman. They go against our natural rhythms. We’ve been conditioned to believe that going against our human rhythms, being very industrial, being very work on the clock 24/7, all those things kind of tying back to again the plantation and then the industrial revolutions, all those things [tie] to where we are now. We’re conditioned to think that that’s like normal and it’s not. Even the way that we have constructed a society to ensure that black indigenous and people of color are at the bottom, it still affects everybody because now everyone is tied to this hustle mentality, this work around the clock mentality in order to make something of yourself, in order to prove yourself worthy, in order to prove yourself to be really more white, so to speak. So that America and the western world approves of you. I could go on and on and on, which, which is why I wrote the book.

Allen

What advice would you give to the young girl, the young person who’s trying to find their self-worth in this culture that’s telling them that they’re not as valuable?

Caroline

To understand that the standards that you are being told you [must] measure up to were constructed for a reason and they were constructed not because of who you are but of maintaining that hierarchy of whiteness. So, to understand that it’s really not you. Like if you think you’re constantly swimming upstream and you’re working against a current and you just can’t figure out quite what is wrong with [you], why am I always exhausted? Why am I always trying to measure up to something? Why am I always looking in the mirror and saying something is wrong with me? It is because you’re being fed these messages left and right from every corner of society to try to tell you, “Hey, you’re not worthy,” so you can spend more money, so you can keep trying harder, so you can keep assimilating, so that white supremacy can continue to be maintained. And it’s not you. It’s them. And of course, you have to still live in this world. I wish we could just take a remote and just kind of turn it off. But unfortunately, that doesn’t work that way. And I think just knowing where it comes from and knowing that you can say no to believing those things and choosing a different route in how you approach life, I think is extremely freeing. I think the knowing the roots of it [is freeing], even if you still have to play the game a little bit. Because everyone’s gonna have to play the game a little bit, especially in the workplace. I’m not saying just, go tomorrow and start just doing things differently because you might lose your job. But I’m saying at least you know the roots of something, and you can say, “Okay. I know that it’s not me. I know that society is set up like this and I don’t have to measure my worth against this.”

 

Allen

What message would you give for the church about how to confront white supremacy?

Caroline

Stop being afraid to talk about it, stop being afraid to have the meetings about it and looking at how you are perpetuating white supremacy in your congregations. This is not something to be afraid of. This is not something that is against Jesus. This is something that Jesus, I believe, would be for. He would be for dismantling any system that oppresses anybody else. This is the work of Jesus. And again, it doesn’t have to be simply marching in the streets when another black person is killed or there’s another racist injustice that we see. That’s important, but it is perpetuated in our boardrooms. It’s perpetuated within leadership, and it’s perpetuated with misogyny. It’s perpetuated when you refuse to play any other worship songs in your church besides a certain group that doesn’t have any people of color in it. Let’s be real. And then you dismiss somebody that wants something else because that’s not the only way to worship. There are simple ways that white’s supremacy is perpetuated, and they all need to be talked about and confronted so that every single human being that walks through your church doors feels like they are home and welcomed there and don’t have to be on edge because they’re a person of color. But again, not even just that, for everybody because my book is We’ll All Be Free, and I make it very clear that my book is written for everybody. White supremacy harms us all. It causes all of us to deal with feeling unworthy in some type of way. And so, looking at how you’re perpetuating it is the first step to dismantling it and it’s not a conversation to be scared of. It’s not work to be scared of. It’s work that is freeing.